How to automate appointment scheduling, make your website never crash again, and build interactive course content with Nathan Tyler in this episode of LMScast with Chris Badgett of LifterLMS. Chris and Nathan get into some tips for course creators and some of the products Nathan offers for course building and coaching.
Nathan is the founder of several products we discuss on today’s LMScast. Simply Schedule Appointments is a calendar solution for scheduling client calls and customer demos with WordPress, and it is designed to integrate directly into WordPress.
WordPress sites are often a linchpin for your business’s success, so it is important to make sure your site doesn’t encounter any unexpected functionality problems when updates occur on your site. Nathan’s product StagingPilot is built to prevent issues like that from surfacing by creating a staging environment that replicates your site and informs you when an update may change your site visually or functionally. StagingPilot will tell you when your site is going to change and how it will change and you can go through and see if you are okay with the changes, and if you are you can update your site. If the updates won’t disable your site in any way, then the updates are automatically installed.
Interacting with your students and customers is a great way to figure out where your company should go and what aspects of the customer experience you should focus on. Nathan and Chris talk a bit about some of their client interaction strategies and how they use analytics tools.
Draw Attention is another one of Nathan’s tools for course creators. It allows you to create interactive images for your students and website visitors. Being different and creating memorable content is important for creating a successful online course. Draw Attention is a great way to do that. Be sure to check out the site to view the demo and some things you can do with Draw Attention.
Nathan has all types of products that are relevant to course creators, coaches, and people building websites in general. Be sure to go check out the ones we talked about in this LMScast here: Simply Schedule Appointments, StagingPilot, and Draw Attention. You can also find Nathan on Twitter at @CroixHaug.
Also head to LifterLMS.com to find out more about how you can use LifterLMS to build your own online courses and membership sites. If you like this episode of LMScast, you can browse more episodes here. Subscribe to our newsletter for updates, developments, and future episodes of LMScast. Thank you for joining us!
Chris Badgett: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. My name’s Chris Badgett, and I’m joined by a special guest, Nathan Tyler. He’s got several products that we’re gonna talk about today. One of them is Simply Schedule Appointments, which rolled out recently to the public. Another one is called StagingPilot. Another one is called WP Draw Attention. But let’s start the conversation at Simply Schedule Appointments. You can find that at simplyscheduleappointments.com.. Welcome to the show, Nathan. Did I say the URL correctly?
Nathan Tyler: You did, yup. Thanks for having me, Chris. Yeah, it is a little bit of a tongue twister if you try to say it real quickly.
Chris Badgett: Actually, the first time I heard it, I instantly … I could always remember the name, which is a good thing when naming products. I do like the name. I know it’s long, but it’s a good name. Why did you decide to build a scheduling tool for WordPress?
Nathan Tyler: Yeah. So, I’m personally a user of Calendly, and have been for a couple years, and use it to schedule client calls, customer demos, all sorts of things. I really find it useful, and I wanted to integrate it more tightly into my WordPress site. I wanted to do some closer integration with the site, and I realized that there wasn’t much out there.
I started looking. There’s a lot of different booking plugins, but none that really have the polish of Calendly or Acuity. You know, there’s great hosted options that are out there, but the WordPress options are just not terribly good. We thought that we could build something that is native, and can customize and integrate with other parts of WordPress. You know, that understands BlueCommerce or LifterLMS, or any other plugin that you have installed. That’s basically where the idea started.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. The course creators and the membership site builders, the folks who tune in to this show, they’re experts. They’re coaches, they’re community builders. That often comes with a need to schedule coaching calls, and things of that nature. What kind of problems are you solving, or what are the main benefits or features of Simply Schedule Appointments?
Nathan Tyler: Booking your time is a primary thing that you’re doing when you’re selling coaching and lessons. But making sure that it integrates with the rest of your schedule … You know, a lot of people have unusual schedules, or they want to make sure that they’re automatically blocking out time if they have something else on their calendar. Or, you only want to have a couple of these types of calls per day. Or, you want to make sure that you have an hour before and after this type of appointments, because it always runs long. Or, it might lead to other things that you need to do right after the call.
Or you might want to set availability, and say, “I only want to do the strategy calls if I have a week of notice. But if you’re this kind of client, who’s paid for this membership, and you have an emergency, then I need to give you another calendar option that says book at time with me, and they can book a 15-minute slot the same day.” So, all of those different kinds of things are things that I want to do in my business, and course creators and coaches want to have that flexibility, as well. That was one of the key things that we’ve really been focusing on, is making sure that there’s flexibility for all those different kinds of needs.
Chris Badgett: Yeah. That’s awesome. I know for me personally, something I used to struggle with when I started to get good at the Internet … Or, you know, became an Internet entrepreneur-type person, working globally … Was time zones. Dealing with time zones just manually, and trying to set up a meeting with somebody somewhere. Then there’s the whole Arizona things. It’s painful. It’s painful.
Nathan Tyler: Yes. [crosstalk 00:04:10]-
Chris Badgett: Go ahead.
Nathan Tyler: It’s painful to develop against, too.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, I bet. That’s the other thing, too. Developing a product around that. For the uninitiated, sometimes when you hear something like, “I run an online course,” or, “I run a membership site … ” In theory, when you first hear that, conceptually it sounds pretty simple. Just like, “Oh, I just need to … ” I can see the same thing with scheduling. Like, “Oh, okay. Well, I just want somebody to pick a time, and then it’ll happen.” But what happens is, when you open up that onion, or start peeling that onion, there’s all these different layers.
Is there anything else? You mentioned things like blackout times, some gaps before and after calls. I mean, these are all things people learn the hard way. Like, you know, maybe this type of call often runs over or under. I realize I need to … Like, for really intense coaching, I might need to go take a 15-minute chill break before the next one starts. [inaudible 00:05:08] … case, or scenarios, does Simply Schedule Appointments look at?
Nathan Tyler: Yeah. I mean, handling different time zones and different appointments is a big thing. But you might also have a physical option, like physical in-person appointment, and your limit and constraints are not only just the times that are available on my calendar. But if you have driving time, or you don’t really know how far apart those appointments are gonna be physically, you might say that I only can have, like, one in-person appointment per day. Like if you’re gonna be driving to somebody’s location for a consultation or something. There’s all sorts of challenges around that.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s awesome. One of the things about technology is it opens up human capacity. Just all that wasted time scheduling meetings, when it can be automated? Even the way that I schedule podcast episodes like this, it’s like I have a link. I send it to the person. They pick a time that works for them. And there’s reminders, and that includes the zoom link. Literally, I’m saving myself so much time to focus on other things. If you do any kind of appointments or coaching, or you’re new getting into it, the whole scheduling problem is a big one. So, I’m really glad you built a solution for that.
Let’s talk a little bit about StagingPilot. That’s another product that you make. What problem does that one solve?
Nathan Tyler: That is basically built around solving the hesitation or fear that everybody has, before they hover their mouse over the update button in WordPress. Whenever you go to click update, plugins or update WordPress for, there’s always that hesitation and worry, of like, “Is this gonna break things, or do I have time to deal with things if it does break?” Or worse, “Will something really small break, and I won’t even notice until a month later, when a customer finally tells me that they’re not able to pay me on my site, or they’re not able to schedule an appointment,” for example.
That’s the problem we’re trying to solve. The way we try to solve that is, we’ve … There’s a lot of tools out there for quickly updating WordPress, or you can just go in and update it. The best practice solution is you’re supposed to create a full, isolated copy of the site. You know, sync down the database. That can take some time. Then you’re supposed to update the plugins there. Then you’re supposed to go through all the pages, and do everything on your site that you should, to make sure that it all still works, and then you should go do those updates again on your live site, and give it one more final check.
That’s the best practice that everybody should be doing, but it takes considerable time, and most people go with the cross my fingers and hope for the best method. Because nobody has two or three hours to do that every single time there’s an update that shows up in WordPress, which happens like every night.
So, we designed our system to behave as if you’re a human with all the time in the world to do all the best practices, and then we automated those steps. StagingPilot can go in, and every time there’s an update available on your site, it does all of the steps I just described. It creates an isolated safe place that’s an exact copy of your site. It runs all the updates that are available, and then it does visual tests before and after. It actually takes screenshots of all the pages of your site. It’ll do it before and after, and it’ll examine every pixel and make sure that nothing has changed visually. It will alert you if it has. And then, if it has plugins with core functionality, it can test those as well.
So, if you have BlueCommerce installed, it can automatically, immediately, all the things that you would do with a human in a browser. You can go to the products page. You can add the product to your cart. You can go through the checkout process, and make sure that at each of those steps, it does everything it’s supposed to do. If you have LifterLMS installed, by chance, you can go through, and StagingPilot would automatically enroll you in a course, go into that course, take a quiz or go through a lesson, make sure that you can sign up as a new user. All the core things that you would want to make sure that your customers can do, and you worry about those things breaking, StagingPilot does the visual comparison and everything, and then it goes through and makes sure everything is functionally working exactly as you expect it.
Then, only after all of that diligent process, it does your updates on the live site. So if something breaks, you get a little warning, and you get notified. You get a little test result that shows you exactly what broke, and where and on what page, so you can look into it, or contact the support team, or contact your devloper. But if everything works, you have the confidence of knowing you don’t have to worry about updates anymore, and everything is safely and … You know, well-tested. That was a very long answer.
Chris Badgett: No, but it’s a very interesting problem, and it’s a very real issue in the industry. I just wanted to highlight for the course creator and membership site builder out there, one of the reasons people come to a tool like LifterLMS is they want to own the platform. It is self-hosted. Versus like a hosted LMS, where you pay monthly fees, you’re basically renting, and there’s limited flexibility in terms of adding other tools or design options, and other kinds of limitations. Perhaps metered pricing around how many students. You get charged more, the more students you have. There’s all kinds of issues in the hosted learning management system online course and membership site industry. But when you own the platform, self-hosted … That’s where LifterLMS lives … and then these amazing tools like WordPress make it accessible, possible for you to build a technology, a website, but also a web-based application, literally an online school, without knowing how to write a single line of code, is amazing.
But then there’s something I’ve noticed, just watching people, and my own journey, too, is a lot of times people start out with a shared, cheap hosting account. And over time, at some point they have one of these problems that Nathan is talking about here, about an update happened and things didn’t go well. Maybe then they get better hosting, something like managed WordPress hosting, with something like WP Engine, and then …
I want to talk a little bit more about how StagingPilot works. But when you own the platform, and it’s also not just a marketing site … Like, it is the business. You’re making money through the website with courses, memberships, potentially other products and things … It’s really important to treat that asset with respect, and have an insurance policy, and put tools in place that protect the future. And keep you current, because technology evolves quickly, and that rate of evolution is accelerating. WordPress is, there’s new things coming. LifterLMS, there’s new things coming. What other plugins you’re using, new products are rolling out. So, testing is very important.
But this is … Not only is it testing for you, it’s also taking away the need, like, “Oh, should I update or not?” It’s doing it all. I just wanted to ask you, Nathan, if you could walk us through, for the uninitiated. Let’s say I have a website on WP Engine. When I add StagingPilot, what can I expect?
Nathan Tyler: You can expect that your site is always up to date, and always working as expected, unless you hear otherwise. Instead of, every day I log into my WordPress site and I see 50 updates available or 40 updates available, your expectation is that you log in and you might see one or two. But basically, those are always getting updated. You don’t have to think about the updates anymore unless you hear otherwise, which is … That’s the baseline expectation that we want.
It should be the same experience you have with your phone. I don’t update apps on my phone and carefully inspect the change logs of every app that I’m about to update, and worry that my phone is not gonna let me make phone calls tomorrow. We want people to have that same experience with WordPress. So, kind of what you’re talking about. People come to WordPress because of the freedom and control over the platform, but they inherit all this responsibility and problems that … You don’t necessarily have or want the power over WordPress, but the kind of carefree. Like, these are the problems that robots and technology should be solving. We shouldn’t be worried about reading change logs, and worrying about every single plugin update that becomes available.
Chris Badgett: And if it does do an update automatically, and it recognizes like, “Oh, I’m having a problem,” or, “This page looks different … ” [inaudible 00:15:09] … The quiz … [inaudible 00:15:13] … “I can’t purchase a course.” What would happen in that case?
Nathan Tyler: That actually all happens on the isolated testing environment. All of that happens on the StagingPilot platform, and it wouldn’t actually touch your live site. We would detect that visual change, or the fact that you couldn’t sign up as a new customer and register for a course, and then you would get an email that says, “Hey, Chris. We tried to update JetPack and WordPress core last night, and now all the sudden, your About Us page looks different. It’s 20% different than it is normally, and your test failed to register for a course, So, click here.”
It would take you to a visual page, where you could see kind of a before and after. You can actually scrub back and forth, and see exactly what changed on that page. And then the test results for, like, going through and registering for a course, we actually … There’s multiple steps in that process. You go to the register page. You fill out the registration form. You click the button. Each of those, we take a screenshot at each of those steps. You have a nice visual thing where you can swipe through step one, two, three, and you can see where it broke. If you have a developer or a support team that needs to look into it, it’s also a great tool. Because you can just … You know. You can see what happened, but you can also just link to it and say to your developer, “Go look at this test result,” and that gives them the information they want and need, to see where the problem happens. That’s even one less step that you have to do. If something goes wrong, it’s easy to articulate to somebody else what happened.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Course creators are one thing for sure, across the board, which is extremely busy. They have to wear many hats. I talk about the five hats on almost every episode on this podcast. Those hats are the expert, the community builder, the teacher, the technologist, and the entrepreneur. You know, you’re very busy. This is something happening with the technology hat on. So if you have good hosting, and you have StagingPilot installed to give you that peace of mind, and know that it’s testing all the updates for you … And then either be prepared, if you have the skills to look into any issues that might arise, or when you just need to have somebody on your bench … Either the product, technical support, or your own freelance web developer. If you’re a much larger organization, just the developer in your company … Can be ready to roll.
That way, that whole technology responsibility is pretty much handled, and you don’t have to worry about it. You can focus on the marketing of your course. The teaching of your students. You can focus on your coaching calls that got scheduled through Simply Schedule Appointments. They’re very busy, and this is one thing that provides a lot of security, but also a lot of efficiency. So, I’m really glad you built that, and I’m also really grateful that you added some LifterLMS-specific tests in there. We really appreciate that.
If anybody’s interested in finding out more about StagingPilot, head on over to stagingpilot.com. Is that the correct URL?
Nathan Tyler: Yep, that’s it.
Chris Badgett: Perfect.
Nathan Tyler: I’m on the little chat bubble most of the time, in the bottom right corner. So if you have any other questions, I’m always on there and answering stuff, too.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Well, I have another surprise for the listener here. Nathan has all these things that are relevant to course creators, coaches, people building websites. This other one is another product he has, called Draw Attention. That’s at wpdrawattention.com. It’s like an image that can provide interactivity. So, if we put our teacher hat on, and our technology hat, and we’re like, “Oh, there’s something here.” What could I add to a lesson in my online course with this tool? Can you explain what Draw Attention does?
Nathan Tyler: Sure. Basically, if you want to create an interactive image, where you can … You know, as people mouse over it, things kind of highlight, different portions of the image, and you can click on it for more information? That’s, in a nutshell, what Draw Attention does. You can use that for a variety of different applications.
As a teacher, we have a little demo on the site that has a picture of a guitar. If you were trying to teach the different parts of a guitar, for example, you could draw … You, the course creator and the admin, could create a little box around the fretboard, and then put in a little description about it. Maybe a detailed, zoom in photo. Then when you publish that on the front end, people, as they mouse over the fretboard, it will light up. Then they can click on it, or there’s a number of different display options. But then it would pop up more information, and show that extra information that you want to put about in there.
People use it for infographics, for interactive learning, for … If you’re doing tutorials for, like, Photoshop, you can take a screenshot of the Photoshop toolbar, and you could write more information about every single little tool in there, so as they roll over something, then they get a whole bunch of extra contextual information. So, there’s a lot of different things that you could use it for. It’s really as creative as you want to get with it.
Chris Badgett: Super cool. It sounds like something, too, that people just need to go check out the website to see what this kind of … And just spur some creativity around what kind of interactive things you could add to your lessons. Because it’s not just about video, audio, text, and downloadable worksheets. This is like another tool in your stack that you could use for creating your actual course content. That’s at wpdrawattention.com.
Now, let’s talk about Nathan the WordPress product entrepreneur. What’s your approach to business partners? Do you have business partners for these, or sometimes it’s different? How does that work?
Nathan Tyler: Yeah. It’s been different over the years. Draw Attention and Simply Schedule Appointments, I’ve partnered with Natalie MacLees. She and I have known each other. We were co-organizers for [inaudible 00:21:56] Los Angeles, and we got to know each other over time, and decided to work on Draw Attention. It was our first project together. But we just had really complementary skills. She’s very [inaudible 00:22:09] and design-oriented, and I’m a much more, like, back-end developer. It was kind of a natural fit, and that’s been really beneficial. I’m sure, as you know, it’s great to have a co-founder that you can work with, and have a balance of skills, and someone you can kind of bounce ideas off of, that’s invested the same way you are. So, that’s been super helpful.
StagingPilot, I have a little team around it, but that one’s founded by me solely. Which, you know … Both are interesting, and fun, and have different sets of challenges.
Chris Badgett: Yeah. The reason I ask, too … When we talk about all the hats that people wear, sometimes partnership helps, and can relieve pressure, or have complementary skill sets. What I find is, like with working with Thomas on the ListerLMS project, we have different skill sets. It doesn’t always fit into the CTO role, or the CEO role. We’re just two human beings, working on this project together. I’m not a developer. He’s not a marketer. But we figure it out together, and I just couldn’t even imagine … It wouldn’t be possible. It would not have been possible, doing it alone. And I’m just encouraging you, the course creator out there, you’ve got all these hats. Maybe consider partnering with somebody.
I know one of the things you mentioned, Nathan, is you’re very busy. You have these products. You’re doing a lot of development. You’re also doing marketing. You’re wearing many hats, so you don’t have as much time as you want for marketing or whatever. Something’s always busy on the tech side. What do you focus on? Like, when you do marketing, with your capacity issues, what do you focus on as a method of marketing?
Nathan Tyler: Yeah. I think one of our strongest [inaudible 00:24:19] channels is word of mouth, and wordpress.org, and all of that kind of stems from the products, so we always have a heavy focus on the product and the user experience. Some of that is the developer in me finding a way to do more development, and convince myself that it’s marketing. But that’s always a focus-
Chris Badgett: I just want to clarify for the listener. When you say dot org, you’re meaning you have free product entryway into your product?
Nathan Tyler: Right.
Chris Badgett: So, you’re using free product as your marketing … Like, as your main marketing, which we do at LifterLMS, too. We have a free product on the front end.
Nathan Tyler: Yeah. I mean, there’s always a core focus on the product. From that, in the limited time that we have set aside for marketing, is we will do analysis on what features are being used, and look to improve the product in ways that we see people … You know, either from support requests, or from data that we have of what people are using. Improving the product in that way. And then I try to, in my limited time, take the 80/20 approach. Like, “If I was just doing full-time marketing, I could spend infinite time on any one of these different things.” Or, “I could tweak my paid advertising to the [nth 00:25:47] degree.” But then, the limited time, it really forces the constraint of, “What’s the most efficient thing to do?”
So, I take like five minutes, and I go into all of my different analytics dashboards once a week. Literally like five minutes. I set a timer, and I just do five minutes of Google Analytics, five minutes in my different advertising dashboards. I use Asana for my project and personal management, but I have recurring tasks, and I have links directly to the right dashboards, with the right timeframes and filters set, and so I just spend five minutes on each one. That gives me a pretty good pulse on the data. And I try not to get too caught up in that, because if you get … Numbers are so hard. All these analytics tools. When you have people on different devices, and somebody shows up as direct traffic, but they really came in through some other channel …
I mean, we don’t want to get into all this different marketing stuff. But the point is that some of these analytics can’t be trusted entirely. So, I try to spend a quick five minutes on each of these to get a quick pulse, and then I really try to get into more qualitative metrics. That might be looking at support requests. I might look at Help Scout for any threads … Which is our support tool … But, any threads with customers that have gone back and forth more than five or six times. I’ll look at all of those for a week, to see where are we having a disconnect or an issue. Those things aren’t scalable. I can’t look at a pie chart for those. But often, those, I think, are more informative. Like, what is the customer having frustrations with, or looking at any individual sessions.
I also try to get on one-on-one calls with customers, if the opportunity presents itself, just to kind of … If there’s somebody who’s new and highly engaged in the platform. I can look on StagingPilot. I might highlight somebody who’s signed up and clicked 10 sites on the platform in the first three days. You know, I can just shoot them a message and say, “Hey, could I talk to you?” Then also, if somebody has put no sites on after a few days.
Even just scheduling those calls, it kind of feels counterintuitive because there’s already so little time to begin with. But doing a 30-minute call with one or two people every week reveals just tons more about what I should be doing. Like how they found us, what marketing was working, what didn’t speak to them? Actually using the product, what issues do we need to address? You know. I think that one-on-one approach also makes people more invested in the product, too. So, I guess that’s how I approach the marketing in a limited time.
Chris Badgett: That was literally a goldmine. I just want to, for you, the listener out there … I just want to pull out some of the learnings in there that Nathan mentioned. What he’s saying … I mean, he’s a software company, but this applies to online course and membership websites, too. The first thing is, he doesn’t have much time, so the best marketing is a good product. He has a free front end. He has a way for people to do valuable things for free. He gets distribution through the WordPress ecosystem for his free products, so he’s not solely by himself in distributing the free product.
He’s set capacity, time limits for different marketing or analytics research activities. Because, just like development, you could just build features forever. I mean, I’m off in [chatbot 00:29:34] land right now, trying to build useful, not annoying chatbots. But having time … I could duplicate myself, and then be completely just as busy. So, I think having those capacity things are really important.
You mentioned one-on-ones. I actually have blocks on my calendar for what I call relationship sales, which includes direct one-to-one time with customers and prospects. It’s just a part of marketing. Not building in a vacuum, and actually talking and listening to your customers or your students. He also uses Help Scout, which is the same thing I use for customer support. It’s a great tool. It has some really nice analytical features built into it, and it really comes into its own if it’s more than just you providing support. So, if you have a team of people who help with sales and support … Even if it’s just two people … But having that shared inbox totally changed our world as a company. I can’t imagine doing support without Help Scout.
And then, what else did you say? Just the data-driven approach, and analytics. But also, realizing that you can get too wrapped up in analytics. It’s an art and a science. There’s this mythical unicorn of the perfect metrics dashboard, that Thomas and I, one day maybe we’ll get around to building, to help us make the best data-driven decisions. It’s always a goal. It’s always something people should be working on. But analytics aren’t always perfect, and they don’t always tell the truth. But it is important to take a data-driven approach to things. And the other thing-
Nathan Tyler: [crosstalk 00:31:16]-
Chris Badgett: Go ahead.
Nathan Tyler: I’m sorry. Yeah, even with Help Scout, that just provided me with their … They have a bunch of metrics on, like, number of responses or whatever. You might think, “Oh, I want to have one and done on every support thread.” Like, one response and it’s done, like that’s the signal of success. But you should look for large fluctuations in your numbers and those metrics. But one of the most valuable things for us is, the longer the threads go, the deeper that customer relationship is. Maybe we’re just replying and giving them an extra little tip, and they’re replying and saying, “Thanks,” and then we’re replying with, “Oh, how did you actually come to use that feature?” Whatever.
Just the pure numbers, they can get really hung up on. Getting that number up or down on what you think is better. But, we could have a 20 chain thread that’s actually a super valuable customer experience and interaction, but on the dashboard it looks really bad. So, making sure you don’t get too hung up on that.
Chris Badgett: Yeah. There’s also a concept of vanity metrics that don’t necessarily matter. The classic example of that is overall traffic. It is an important number, but it’s not necessarily the most important number. Sometimes people just get really focused on hits to your website, but not … What really matters, maybe more, is course completion rates and student success, which will create that word-of-mouth marketing. So maybe you should focus on that, more than getting traffic off of Reddit, or something like that.
Nathan Tyler: Right.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Well, this is a great conversation. It’s really neat how you have these different tools that have applications in the course building and the membership community. For the listener out there, check out StagingPilot at stagingpilot.com, simplyscheduleappointments.com., and wpdrawattention.com. We’ll have some links for all this on the podcast and below the video, to point you over to where all this stuff is. Nathan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for adding Lifter support into StagingPilot. It’s really cool. Is there anywhere else, if people want to track you down or see what you’re up to, where they can connect with you on the Internet?
Nathan Tyler: Those are all good places. I’m on Twitter, and I won’t try to say the handle, but you can put it in the description. You can always find me there. Like I said, on StagingPilot, I’m on that live chat quite a bit. So, if you have questions about any of this, you can also find me there.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Nathan Tyler: All right. Thanks for having me.