In this LMScast Chris Badgett of codeBOX discusses ways to create high-ticket programs with Frank Bria, host of the Scale to Success podcast and creator of the High-Ticket Program. We’ll be covering pricing, scaling, and the basic building blocks of a successful program.
Frank offers some of his keys to building a high-end course, beginning with pricing based on the value of knowledge. The problem is that knowledge is becoming less valuable over time, so you want to base your pricing on the results you’ll deliver to the customer. If you switch to outcome based thinking in developing your courses, your customers will be able to see immediate life-changing value in what you’re offering them.
People buy things for one of 4 reasons: to make money, save money, stay out of jail, or realize a better life. You need to identify which of those 4 outcomes your courses provide for. What most entrepreneurs do wrong is to play the psychological game of making people want something to ease their pain, but then being ambiguous about how you’re going to deliver on your promise. You do need to create that gap, but you also have to bridge the gap. Customers need to see that you have a map and a plan to take them where they need to go.
Frank then explains the SAM Framework for resolving the 3 core customer objections and how to get past those objections through providing the skills, accountability, and mentorship they need to achieve their desired results. Training is not enough – you need to walk them through the processes using tools like a Facegroup or mastermind group, email program, Q&A sessions, or other intentional ways of delivering on your promise.
Chris and Frank talk about the fears that often prevent people from making the transition from a highly successful career to providing online courses as a business. Frank explains his pricing theory and tells how to think about pricing for the results you provide online at the same rates you have charged conventionally, because you should basically make the same money for the same result.
They discuss the 5 building blocks you need to create high value programs, which are virtual training, a mastermind group, coaching, a done-for-you service, and live events and workshops. You can get Frank Bria’s free blueprint for his 3 steps to create high-ticket programs here.
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Chris: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. In this session we’re talking with Frank Bria from Scale to Success and the creator of High-Ticket Program, and we’re going to get into some really interesting ways to look at pricing, scaling, and really when you’re designing your courses, that you make sure that you take certain essential building blocks into account if you want to build a successful and scalable program. Frank, thank you for coming on the show.
Frank: Hey, my pleasure. It’s a honor to be on your program. Thanks.
Chris: All right. Let’s get right into it. You’re known as the high-ticket guy so what are some of the keys of building a high end course? We get asked this a lot. How do I price my course or if I want to create a premium course, what are the key parts of that but what are some common misconceptions and then how do we get into really starting off strong going for high-ticket in the beginning?
Frank: Yeah, it’s a great question. Basically one of the things that makes it tough when it comes down to pricing is what is the value of knowledge. That fundamentally is the question that we end up asking and I think that’s actually the problem because it’s a trap question. It’s like a trick question. What’s the value of knowledge? Whatever it is, I don’t know the answer of what’s the value of knowledge but I can tell you this for sure. Whatever the value of knowledge is today, tomorrow it will be less.
Frank: Price of knowledge is going down for sure. There are already people running around saying the price of knowledge is free. Content is free. Whatever. It makes it tough when we are trying to make a business out of teaching. It makes it tough to come up with good pricing. Obviously you want to be paid for your efforts so how do you pull that off? The answer that I’ve come up with, that I think makes the most sense to me personally based on my background and the kind of work that I’ve done is to stop asking about the price of knowledge and to start asking about the price of results.
What is the price of the outcome? Because we’re learning for a particular purpose. We’re learning for an outcome so the example I love to give is the example of someone who teaches a Twitter course. What’s the purpose of learning how to use Twitter? It’s not so that you can feel better about using Twitter. Maybe it is. Maybe we’re feeling less frustrated and it’s easier to live my life but the whole point is if you’re a business owner and you’re using Twitter, you’re doing it specifically to gain leads, to get sales.
The value in the knowledge of getting sales is the value in the sales. That’s now something I can quantify and that’s something where actually price isn’t going to go down. It’s actually going to go up over time. If we can make this switch of worrying about how much we price the knowledge and how much we price the results, if we can switch over to outcome based thinking in what we do, then we’re in a much better place. We’re in a place where prices go up, we’re in a place where we can charge high-ticket, we’re in a place where our clients see the immediate value.
We don’t have this thing where it’s like, “I went through your 8 modules and watched your videos. I just didn’t really think it was worth $99.” All of that just goes away and we’re back to a place of you got results. You got money out of this. The challenge I think there is that a lot of times when we develop courses, we don’t think about outcomes. We think about learning outcomes. That’s a instructional design thing but we don’t really think about life outcomes, like life changing outcomes and so I tell people, “Find your life changing outcome. What is the outcome you’re trying to generate for your audience that is life changing?”
If you think I’m overstating it by saying, “life changing outcome” you’re probably in the wrong business because I think as an entrepreneur we should all be out there trying to make big impact and that’s the ticket to high sales. People always say, “What’s the ticket? What’s the secret to selling something for high-ticket?” The secret is changing lives. Period. That’s it exactly.
Chris: That’s really cool. Let’s give out some examples of a big outcome. It’s funny in the online course space in some ways you have to work a lite harder for it where as in society at large, sometimes there’s some assumptions in operation where people don’t think twice about $100 grand in debt for a education. I’m not saying that’s good or bad I’m just saying it’s more just assumed that that’s there but I don’t know. I’m just thinking off the top of my head. I would pay a lot of money for something related to my kids and their health and wellness and well being or a elderly parent or if I was trying to make a career move and have a much better paying career, that’s of value to me.
Frank: Absolutely. Yep. The way I look at it is this and this may be really I don’t know, very tactical but I think people buy stuff for 1 of 4 reasons and only 4 reasons. They either buy something to make money, to save money, to stay out of jail, or to have a better life. That’s it. Really.
Frank: We can categorize all these great outcomes into one of those 4 buckets. The trick is that what a lot of people think actually my audience buys things for more than one of those reasons. Maybe they buy things to make money and have a better life. I guess my argument is that deep down inside that’s probably not true. Deep down inside your audience probably really only has 1 thing in mind. Think about it this way.
Let’s say that I was a business coach as an example and so I’m a business coach whose goal it is for you to make more money and of course with that more money you’ll have a better life. That’s one business model. Now let’s say I’m a business coach whose goal it is to have you have a better life and really enjoy your life. Of course you’re going to need money to be able to do that. You can see those are 2 different businesses. They’re going to attract 2 different kinds of consumers. They’re going to teach different things. They’re going to focus on different things.
Even though we think we’re doing 2 things at the same time, we’re really not. We’re really only doing 1. To your point earlier, here’s the gotcha. People typically spend way more money to have a better life than they do on any of the other 3. Maybe not stay out of jail.
Chris: What’s an example stay out of jail thing?
Frank: Attorneys keep people out of jail.
Chris: Okay right.
Frank: Also there’s lots of management consultants whose job it is to keep you in line with tax laws and compliance regulations and stuff. I put it in there because there’s all sorts of businesses that keep you out of trouble with the government and of course you spend money on that knowing you’re not going to get any of it back. You pay your CPA, that doesn’t really help you. Your tax CPA different story. Maybe he can help you.
Chris: You’re avoiding pain or potential pain.
Frank: Yeah exactly. People, and this is the funny thing, people who are dead broke, in our industry, we have all these people who are like, “I’d love to pay for your course but I don’t have any money because I can’t pay the rent” and all this stuff. Yeah. Watch those people get a DUI. They have $10,000 like that to pay for an attorney to keep them out of jail. Those people will find the money. Definitely there’s this box that’s important to keep your eye out on.
The thing is that the better life thing, like you said. Your kids having a better life, you getting a better career, you being able to take more vacations, those sorts of things people pay money for. The trick is is that it’s hard to quantify but the good news is people sort of mentally put a good premium on that outcome.
Chris: If I want a better life and I’m going to have more free time, I think the popular culture assumption is that there’s a lot of snake oil or just disingenuous offers out there. As somebody who really believes in a product they’re creating to give people a better life and free up more time through building a better business or whatever it is, how do I trust you or how do you handle objections?
Frank: Absolutely. That is the … Before we get to the answer, let me tell you what everyone is doing that is absolutely wrong about this. This is the thing. The classic marketing stuff tells you to build a gap. You create this wonderful picture of how things can be in the future and you get them to mentally invest in all this really awesome stuff happening in their life and then you get them back to today, why it’s not happening and what all the challenges are and all the problems and you get them to feel the pain and you get them to want that gap and you make that really painful and then you stop.
That is the mistake. That’s what causes the snake oil salesman. Anyone can do that. Anyone can play the psychological game where you make people want something and you realize they don’t have it and you make it hurt enough and you use the right words and neurolinguistic programming and all this kind of stuff and then suddenly people are going to pay you tons of money without anything and I just think those days are almost over because people are getting wise to it.
The difference is is that yes, you do need to create that gap but you also have to provide a bridge over the gap. You don’t have to give them the answer but you have to say that you have the way. The way I love to think about this is I think about the 1 thing that I follow absolutely even if my gut tells me it’s wrong and that’s my GPS. If I’m in my car driving and that little voice tells me to turn left and deep down inside, it’s like, “Nope, turn right. You got to turn right.” I know everyone in the audience has totally been there. You’re coming up to the intersection and you’re like, “I’m supposed to turn right. I’m supposed to turn right” and it says, “Turn left, turn left.” At the last minute you’re like, “I’m turning left” even though you think you’re supposed to turn right.
Why do you do that? Because you can see on the map that there’s a line between where you are and where you want to go and so your absolutely 100% certain that even if maybe it’s the long way or it’s an extra turn out of the way, you have a path to get there and that’s what we as teachers and service providers need to provide for our clients. They need turn by turn directions on how they get from where they are today to where they’re going to go. That doesn’t mean we give them that all away for free but they have to see the line on the map that traces over the gap. You don’t have to provide the bridge to get there. When you do, it’s not snake oil anymore. It’s, “Oh, first I have to do this. Then I’m going to have to do that. Then I’m going to have to do that.”
Once you can provide that level of detail, you can get rid of that part of the objections of okay yeah you actually have a plan. You’re not just talking about let’s figure it out together. This is really actually something worth investing in
Chris: That’s really cool. That makes a lot of sense. In terms of that path and you have the milestones and the individual components, I heard from you something about Sam framework. Can you tell me more about that?
Frank: Yeah sure absolutely. Because we talk about results and this comes back to your still part of your question like how do you resolve the objections. There are objections and programs not enough. The way I like to describe it is that there are 3 objections that your prospect has. 1, you don’t have a program to get me there. 2, I don’t trust you and 3, I don’t trust me. Those are really your major objections. You’ve got to somehow get past those and here’s the real trick. Your prospect may tell you they have objections to your program if you’re lucky. They may tell you they don’t trust you if you’re really lucky but they’re not going to tell you that they don’t trust them.
You have to know that this is going on in the head of your prospect. How do you do that? One of the ways to really focus on the “I don’t trust me” the prospect doesn’t trust themselves is that they’ve probably invested in training before and haven’t gotten results or they’ve gone through other people’s stuff and found it was snake oil. Because we’re focusing on outcome, because we’re focusing on results, there are really 3 things that you need to provide your prospect in order to get those results. 1 is skills. Absolutely. You have to teach skills.
Another one is accountability because your prospects going to have to need to do something. If they don’t have to do anything, what’s the whole purpose of this? They’re going to have to to do something and you’re going to have to hold them to do that something and the 3rd thing is mentorship. The difference between accountability and mentorship is accountability says, “The learner needs to do something.” Mentorship is, “The learner needs to observe something.” They need to watch you. You as the expert whether that’s seeing examples, whether that’s asking questions, whether that’s getting feedback from the thing that your learner is actually doing.
All 3 of those things need to happen. You can’t just teach skills. The example I give is if you don’t believe me, go get brain surgery from the guy who just read the textbook. No one’s going to go do that. You want them to have walked through this with someone who watched what they did before they operate on you. The same things true with your prospect. They want to make sure that they’re surrounded by this. Training isn’t enough. You can’t … Training is great. You get skills that way but if you really want to create high-ticket results oriented programs, you have to provide for accountability and mentorship as well. How are you going to do that?
Maybe it’s a Facebook group, maybe you have a mastermind, maybe you have an email accountability follow up program. Maybe you have Q&A sessions whatever it is. You have to come up with some intentional way of delivering on those. We call that a Sam profile. That’s skills accountability and mentorship. Every stage of the learning process you need to identify what the Sam profile is of that stage and then deliver on it.
Chris: That’s very cool. Let me take a slight detour and just ask you a personal question that I’m wondering about which as somebody who’s worked with a lot of entrepreneurs and helped a lot of people launch courses and do other things in business, I’m aware of this whole fear of success thing and I used to not believe it or understand it. Then over and over again, right on the 5 yard line, right before launch or right before it’s almost done or almost about to go into the world, inevitably, and I’ve recognized this in myself too. I’m not free of this but where does that come from? Do you have any thoughts on that just in terms of helping people get through that? Is that from a lack of mentorship? Is that from a lack of the right skills or where does that come from?
Frank: That’s a great question. I think there are 3 components to fear of success. 1 is just mindset stuff. It’s the whole impostor syndrome. I don’t belong here. How did I get here? I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. Of course that breeds a whole bunch of, “oh no, all of these people are now trusting me to help deliver some great result and if I fail, I don’t just fail me, I fail all of them.” We all have that.
I think anybody who doesn’t have that is a sociopath. We all have that and anyone who says they don’t is a liar. It’s there. The thing we have to do is admit it’s there and I think we do need mentors to help us through. I certainly have a mentor. I’ve had mentors in the past. One of my mentors is Michael Port and he’s been an incredible teacher and mentor to me and yeah, there have been times where I’ve been in that moment of, “Oh no, this is” and he’s been the perfect guy who’s been like, “You are the next big thing” and I’ve been like, “Wow, you can say that about me?” It shakes you out of it.
We absolutely need mentorship to help us through that and people who have been there before and can recognize that in us. That’s definitely one. The second thing is is I think fear of success can often come from a lack of planning. Okay great, now what? Let’s just say I get this across the 5 yard line and I make the touchdown. Now what? Now I’m going to have to do something I’ve never done before and so that is I think a combination of skills and mentorship. What is the next stage? What are you doing to do next? This happens a lot in service businesses where I talk to service providers, even really successful ones where I say to them, “Okay listen, your client’s not in the room. We have the cone of silence on. You can be honest now.” Honestly, right before you sign up that big project, right before they sign on the line, there’s a little twinge inside of you that’s like, “Oh crap. There goes my schedule.” You know what I mean?
Frank: We’re really excited about the revenue. We want the money. We totally want it coming in but there’s this little, “Oh crap, that’s going to be a lot of work” and I do think that that element of … It’s like not matching our plan. The business is incongruent with the life we want to live and I do think that a lot of fear of success has to do with I’m successful in the metrics that everyone’s telling me I should be successful in like revenue but for some reason it doesn’t feel like success. Every win feels like it’s a bit of a pure victory. There is that for sure.
I think that’s a business model change and we do need I think people to point out to us, “Hey, if you’re having a twinge of regret every single time a client signs up, there’s a problem that you probably need to fix.” You probably need to figure out what your selling and how it aligns to what you want to be doing.
The third thing is accountability. I think every single on of us gets to that … There’s a part of us that gets to that 5 yard line and it’s like what do you have to do to get it over the line? It’s extra work. It’s the classic 80/20 rule. 80% of the effort to get the last 20% done and sometimes you just need somebody to just kick your butt and help you get that last little bit done. I think if you take a look at all of those pieces together, that helps us … That means you can surround yourself with the resources you need to ensure success when you get it to that red zone.
Chris: Awesome. A lot of people listening to this episode I know because I talk to a lot of people as they’re starting to get into thinking about online courses and different part of that journey but a lot of them are highly successful, make good money consultants and service providers who really want to get into the product ties service or the done for you. I’m going to take my service and I’m going to package it into a course to get the same result for the client. What is the key for making that leap because it’s a big leap and it’s also really scary for people to do but how can they do it without the fear and how can they do it the right way and can you save them some classic stumbling blocks in that transition?
Frank: I’ll tell you the biggest problem that usually happens when people make that transition. You’ve got a classic consultant or high value service provider. When they do project work, when they do one on one work, they’re making good money. They’re charging 40, 50 $70,000 or something. Some of my clients they’re charging $150,000. Before I made the switch over, my clients I was charging them $350,000. How do you make that switch over?
Here’s the big challenge. Go out on the internet and you start looking at courses and course providers and you start looking at price points. You see everything. You’re going to see $19, $99, $500, $2000, all over the map. When I started doing courses, I joined, I won’t even say the name but I joined this one platform for courses. You put your course up there and then you put the price that it’s $799 and then you immediately mark it down to $19 with this idea of getting this flood of people in.
Okay great. Do the math. If I’m going to take the time away from my $70,000 consulting engagement to sell $2000 courses let’s just say, you have to sell 35 of those things in order to make it make some sense and that takes some time. If you talk about a $19, forget it. The numbers are just astronomical. The biggest challenge people have is how do I keep my cash flow going when I make the switch over and I blow away the premise entirely at the beginning. There’s this idea that when you create scalable income that you have to start small and you start with the low stuff and you get your foot in the door and you build this ascension ladder of smaller then bigger then bigger then bigger then bigger and then one of these days maybe I’ll create that wonderful mastermind where we take the 5 people to Tahiti and charge them $100,000.
Isn’t that the internet marketing bill? I just think that whole thing is crap. The whole idea of doing that is complete crap. The idea behind being a high valued service provider is that you’re creating results for your clients. If you create results for your clients, you can do so in a scalable way. You don’t have to do it in a way that sells your time but if you’re getting those same results, why in the world would your prices drop? If you’re priced correctly and you’re charging $70,000 because they’re getting at least 10-20x return on investment. They’re making $700 to $1.4 million lets say on your stuff.
Great. If you do it in a way that doesn’t sell your time and they’re getting the same results, why should your price change? You should be able to charge big money for that exact same result. You probably can’t do it by just putting a couple of videos online. You’re not going to basically get rid of yourself and all of the things that you do with a couple of video training programs but the training is a core component of an overall program. When you plan correctly and you look at the accountability and the mentorship component as well and you design something that gets your client the same result, then you should not be messing around with $500 courses. You should be charging 10, 20, 50, $100,000.
I have a client who has a scalable program that costs $100,000 and that’s because the client gets $1 to $2 million of benefit out of it. It’s all about the value that you’re providing. If you do that first, you don’t have to worry about where’d my money go? That’s the big challenge of making that transition.
Chris: That’s awesome. Let me ask you a question before we get into the stack for programs. What are the key pieces? If we’re looking at something where it’s not obvious what our starting point is that we want to provide a result of 10x value, let’s say you’re looking at something like health. How do you quantify that in terms of 10x result? I know they’ll live long enough to see their grandkids or there’s other ways to talk about it but if it’s not obvious if you take my $10,000 course you can get this $100,000 job in a year, that’s kind of obvious.
With the more abstract or subjective results, how do you do that? How do you-
Frank: Yeah. Great question. The answer is unfortunately you have to ask. It’s basically price testing but before we get to that easy tactical piece, let’s talk about 1 strategic element of that which is really important.
Frank: If you are providing the better life component. We talked about that 4th reason people buy. You have to understand that the value you provide is highly dependent on the person taking that program. For example, I have a client who is a dietitian and she helps women get over digestive IBS issues and basically gets their time back and the program that she offers is for women entrepreneurs who basically are losing 5-10 hours a week because of their health and their business. Get that 5-10 hours back and put it back in their business, basically they get a return on that investment.
Chris: Got you.
Frank: If she was going to offer that exact same program to somebody who let’s say just occasionally has stomach pains, they’re not going to pay $14,000 for her program which is how much it costs because the value to that woman isn’t the same.
Value depends on it’s in the eye of the beholder and a lot of times what happens is we’ll say, “I help you prioritize your life better so that you can spend time doing the things you really enjoy.” Great, that’s awesome. 1 person who doesn’t have a real pain point around that is like, “That’s lame, I wouldn’t pay very much for that” and then we as the course creator go, “Oh, no. I’ve got something that’s not very much of value.” No. We got to go find the audience where it is of value and there’s going to be an audience where it’s a very very painful problem.
When I was a corporate consultant and I worked on 5 continents, I was flying all over the place and 350,000 miles a year, if somebody told me that there was going to be a way to prioritize my life so that I could spend more time with my family, I would have paid a ton of money for that. It all comes down to finding the right audience. It’s not just a matter of identifying exactly what the outcome is but it’s also finding the people who care.
Once you find the people who care you have to ask them. This is a core piece that I really strongly believe in. A lot of people when they create courses or programs, the very first thing they do is they put up a lead magnet and they start sending Facebook traffic to it and all this stuff and I hate that because it totally cuts your legs out from underneath you in getting feedback, desperate feedback that you need. I think that you really need to validate your course or your program with pilot clients.
That means actually going and talking to people, not as part of a sales conversation but literally as a validation process. Here’s the problem I’m trying to solve. Here’s the pain I think you have. Let me validate that. Does that make sense? Do you feel that pain? Is that something you’d invest some money in? How much money would you invest to make that problem go away? You tell me. By the way, I’m thinking of charging X. Would you pay that or not?
Here’s the other trick. If I talk to 7 people about price and all 7 of them tell me that the price is good, my price is too low.
Chris: Right. Right.
Frank: This is something that people don’t understand about pricing theory is that you actually want 30-40% of people to say yes and then you know your price is good because you’ll get a good conversion rate and you’ll also make money out of it so if i make 7 validation calls, I want 5 of the 7 people to basically validate that I’ve got the right problem and the right solution. It’s something they would invest in and yes, all of the words you’re using, they make sense to me. All that stuff.
Of those 7 people, I only want 3 people to tell me that they would buy at the price that I’m offering because that gives me about a 42% conversion rate which is better than a 33 which is what I usually shoot for. Then I know I’m not under charging. Sometimes the nos in the validation tell us just as much as the yeses do.
Chris: Very cool. In terms of pricing, last question here, what is the stack to create high value programs? There’s online courses but there’s more to it. What else could you do? Some ways in our world we call that blended learning a little bit where there’s different modalities to connect with people whether it be events, the online course, and whatever but what is your stack?
Frank: Exactly. I always focus on scalable methods so I don’t like one on one, I don’t like projects. Those are custom projects. I don’t like those so I immediately throw those off. If we’re going to build a program, I want it to be something that’s scalable and for me scalable means that every new client does not take up any more of your time.
Frank: That’s the goal. On day 1 we’re not going to have that, but the goal is we want to create that. If that’s the case, if that’s the goal then I see there’s basically 5 building blogs. They’re like Legos. You can have them put together any way that you want that make up that process. We’ve already talked about one, that’s virtual training. Makes total sense. It’s probably a core component of every program. Some kind of virtual training.
2 is a mastermind. When I talk about masterminds, I want to talk about a real mastermind. I’m not talking about the, “Oh I just wrote my book and so now I’m going to create a mastermind.” That’s not masterminds. Masterminds are specifically a small group of people with a very particular goal together for accountability and you are a facilitator. You’re not the expert, you’re not the guru, you’re just facilitating the dialogue. The learning happens between the participants. They keep themselves accountable, they meet together on a regular basis to do that. That’s what a true mastermind is.
The third building block is group coaching. This is actually what most people call a mastermind but it’s really group coaching and that is where you are the guru, you are the expert, you’re providing mentorship mostly for a group. Answering questions, showing examples, bringing them things that you think would be useful. You’re the curator of the group. The fourth thing is a done for you service. A lot of people go, “Wait a minute, Frank, you just said no project work.” Done for you services are a little bit different. When I talk about done for you service, I’m talking about a very specific outcome that you know how to create and you can create a very specific process that generates it. Almost like it’s a manufacturing process.
It’s the difference between a custom project where you go when your client says, “What can you do?” You go, “I don’t know what do you need?” That’s a custom project. We’re not in that business but you need your course setup on our system? Yeah we do that because it requires step A, step B, step C, step D. Every single time. We have people for that. We have a bench of folks that do that work. You on day 1 might be the person doing that work but the idea is that you can train somebody to take your job.
The last one are live events and workshops. All 5 of those Lego blogs have different Sam profiles. Back to the skills, accountability and mentorship. Virtual training provides skills but it doesn’t provide any accountability and mentorship. While a mastermind is a horrible place to teach skills and actually doesn’t do a lot of mentoring but it’s great accountability. If you look at those different blocks, you’re going to use them in different ways and you can actually design it really intentionally to make sure that you’re getting the results that your folks need.
Chris: That’s awesome. That’s a really powerful stack there. Frank Bria, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to hear more about what you’re up to and how you can help them more, where do you want to send them?
Frank: If people are interested in this stack and how to put that together, we have a blueprint that actually walks through the 3 stages of putting a high-ticket program together. If you go to frankbria.com/blueprint, you can get it for free.
Frank: Download it for free and it’ll walk you through those 3 big steps and it talks about some of the things that we’ve talked about in more depth.
Chris: Perfect. Thank you Frank for coming on the show. We’ll have to do this again sometime.
Frank: Yeah, my pleasure. It was a lot of fun.
Chris: Have an awesome day.