Chris Badgett of LifterLMS talks about the current state of online education and the engagement opportunity with Mike Weiss in this episode of LMScast. Mike is from the Client Engagement Academy, and he is a professional in online course and platform creation. They discuss the problems with eLearning in the online course landscape and how to solve them.
Online courses have an extremely low completion rate, because the mindset behind the people who buy them is to extract information rather than to complete the course. Mike explains that this creates a bookstore mentality, and students don’t care to finish the course. Mike shares ideas and tips that can help you increase your completion rate, receive better feedback, and ultimately sell more courses.
Mike offers advice on how to add value to your courses by using digital badges. The digital badge has grown in popularity lately. Chris and Mike discuss the value of the digital badge, and how that can help bring students into the course with the end in mind. This will help with completion rates, because it provides incentive to finish the course. The digital badge also provides a level of tangibility to the online course community.
Employers are starting to implement online courses into the job training process, and in some cases to the application process. Online badges serve as a new way of setting standards for industries that do not have many standards. It is currently difficult to prove that someone is skilled in social media marketing or email marketing. Digital badges provide a great way to prove the trainings that one has been through.
Mike believes it is essential to understand your company’s data and what all of the numbers and logistics mean. Measuring the velocity at which your students are completing course material is also necessary to improve your course completion rate. Having frequent tests and quizzes can help determine the speed of completion and help gather feedback necessary to improve your course. Knowing your course’s data will also help you motivate people who take your course.
People have all different types of learning styles, so Mike believes that you should cater to the people in your online course that want to open the floodgates and take on all of the content at once. But it is also important to know that some people will get overwhelmed by that, so having options within your course about the speed at which content is provided is important.
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Chris Badgett: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. My name is Chris Badgett, and I’m joined today with a special guest. Today we have Mike Weiss from Client Engagement Academy, and Mike is a real expert in online course creation, platform creation, instructional design. And really if I had to pick just one area in all of that, it has to do with an obsession with engagement and really pushing the industry forward in terms of increasing course completion. We’re going to get into that, and we’re going to get into kind of some of the problems out there in the eLearning, in the online course, or the digital learning landscape. First, Mike, thanks for coming on the show.
Mike Weiss: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to spending some time with you and your audience. I’ve been watching you in the space, and it’s amazing to see your dedication and commitment to excellence, and so both for the educator and the student. I love that.
Chris Badgett: Thanks, Mike. One of the things that I really … I think I heard a statistic from you in a presentation in the Devin Slavin’s Course Creation Summit, which I think I’ve borrowed and been using, and I’m really happy to give you credit publicly, and also I heard in our earlier conversation you rolling off even more statistics that I’m likely going to borrow in the future, just with more detail. But one of the things you’ve really worked on is increasing engagement, and I have some other podcast episodes, way old ones, about the dirty little secret of membership sites, and that dirty little secret is that sometimes people buy stuff they don’t finish or don’t use. And I heard somewhere from you that there was like a 10% industry average completion rate, and I thought we could start there and kind of look at the problem.
Let’s start with some statistics. What are some of the either recently, or that you know about in the different types of eLearning, what are some statistics around course completion?
Mike Weiss: Yeah. Some of these you can find online fairly easily, like for instance, like I have some broad categories. There’s the personal development space, which I’ll share my personal experience from that space, and having spent many years in that space, and dealt with as an educator with customers, I knew what my numbers were, and I knew what some of the peer numbers were. That’s the personal development space, and then there’s the business opportunity space. That’s really anybody that’s looking to take a course, to improve their life in some way, shape, or form in business or hobbies or those type of things. Then there’s sort of the in between, which is really hard to classify, and then if we look at some of the newer channels like the MOOCs, the Harvard, Yale, University of Pennsylvania, that data for sure is online because they have a big challenge and it just goes to show, I think, our audience that they took the best professors at those universities. I don’t know what the tuition is a year, but it’s got to be 60, 70 grand a year now. They took the best professors, took some of the best courses and put them out for free, and they get 50% of people aren’t even logging in, and their completion rates are in, say, 4% to 8% range. That’s to me really sad.
Udemy, which has 12 million students and 40,000 instructors, because they’re an aggregator of educators and an aggregator of students, I’ve heard that their number is sub 10%. Around 8% completion rates. Personal development, which is where … We peaked out before we took action was around 12%, and then the business opportunity space, that is where it’s shockingly low. In my opinion, they’re all disgustingly low, but business opportunity is at like 3%. That’s a shame. That’s what inspired me six years ago when we only had 12% of our customers. I helped start a company with John Azeroth that was a client engagement company, and so we faced this problem as educators, and then we did move the needle into the low 20% but not because of anything that I’m doing today. It was because we hired human beings, the client onboarding experience. We used automation and some accountability. Just hard work, but not from anything that really we’re doing today. Yeah, those are the numbers. When you’re an educator and you’re faced with those numbers, it makes business really tough.
Chris Badgett: Yeah. That is a huge gorilla in the room, and I’m sure that in person classrooms or in person schools at all levels have a much higher completion rate, so there’s this challenge of the learn at home situation. I mean, the same thing I think happens when people buy books that they don’t finish, or other kinds of information products of whatever variety. In my opinion, some of that comes from the content. Maybe it’s not that engaging, or perhaps someone feels like, “Oh, I was sold this, but once I got behind the paywall, I’m not really feeling it. I’m not seeing the value, or I’m not seeing results fast enough.” What do you think underlies … Like, what are some of the key problems behind these low rates? You mentioned onboarding, and you know, engagement. Trying to hook people back in, encourage them to come back. What else is going on under the hood?
Mike Weiss: Well, that’s a great question. There’s a philosophical answer that will be general, and then I can get into more specifics. What you hit on is absolutely true. If I … Let’s take an example. If I’m interested in learning about socially conscious business, and I’m at an employer and I’m looking to change jobs, and I want to make a difference work-wise, but I also want to work for a company that’s socially conscious, so it would behoove me to learn about it before my interview. The traditional way is go to a bookstore. I guess people don’t go to bookstores that much anymore, but go online and shop. You buy three or four books on socially conscious business. You read some chapters here, there, ba ba ba ba ba, and then like you said, a lot of that stuff ends up on the shelf. It gets shelved.
That, to me, is where the online education industry is. There’s a clear line in the sand between online education and traditional brick and mortar education. Traditional brick and mortar education, when you enter in to high school, you’re going to graduate and you’re going to graduate because without that, you’re not getting into college. When you go to college, you go to college because you’re going to graduate, because you’re going to get a better job than if you didn’t go to college. MBA, doctor, lawyer, any other more advanced education, you go with one thing in mind, and that’s to graduate. The mentality of that student is completely different, because in their own selfish right they’re going into something with an end in mind because they want to then get the benefit of that ton of money invested.
If you really want to break down 500 years of education even more to its core, it comes back to the same concept of basically any investment we make in life, and that is if we can’t get a mathematical return, then the investment generally is going to fail. People don’t like to look at education that way, but my background in 29 years in the financial business and a spreadsheet guy, I look at a lot of opportunities like that. Then people say to me, “Well, look, doctors … That’s not been the case for doctors, because they want to save lives.” I’m like, “That’s bull crap, because if you think about what a doctor goes through, they go through college, and then they go through doctor school, and then they go through a few years of additional training, so the bottom line is, their education today, not only is it 10 to 12 years, but it could be close to a half a million dollars. Now, if they weren’t paid more because they were a doctor and they were just making $75,000 a year, the entire system would fail because no one’s going to spend 10 or 12 years and be in debt a half a million if you can’t make a return on your investment.”
It all comes down to this magic formula. Now, if we take that and we say, “Okay, let’s look at the online education world,” well, online education world is no better than a bookstore, as you mentioned. I don’t even know if you were actually thinking about it this way, but all the online courses out there, they’re bookstores with books. When people are buying these courses online, they have no real intention of finishing them like they would if they entered into a course that was in high school, college, or it was a prerequisite for them to get something, because that mindset is, “I’m going in with a beginning and end. I’m going to finish.” Where was the transition from, “Okay, online world is like just books,” which by the way is part of the reason why the graduation rates are so poor, because I don’t even think people are still focused on that, and where has it now changed?
For me, what caused me to pivot my entire business and go from being an expert in online marketing to basically shutting down that entire business and building my own platform is because of what Mozilla did with the Digital Badge. They recognize … They’re a global brand, so they can affect the world, and they realize I think a lot of what I just shared is that, “Okay, it’s a broken industry. What’s missing, and what can we help with?” That’s the magic, to me, of the Digital Badge, because for the first time now, an educator has an open source architecture, a way, a methodology, a tool that they can easily say, “Okay, my course is 10 modules, and you’re going to start, and at the end you’re going to be able to get a diploma and a Digital Badge.” Now, that methodology, which wasn’t available three or four or five or 10 years ago, now creates this new opportunity to actually shift the mindset of your students as they come into your course.
To me, there’s a lot of secret sauce that I put into building, because we consult, design, build, and host our platforms for our customers. I’m going to go through some of those. Those are more strategic, but the entire thing comes back to mindset, and if you can adjust people’s mindset prior to them coming in, saying, “Look, I’m up for a student outcome. That’s why I want you to buy my course. If you just want to buy it and shelve it, I’m not going to stop you, but I’ve designed this with one purpose in mind. That’s you want an outcome, and we designed it to get an outcome. How? Ba ba ba ba bum, and by the way, at the end you get a Digital Badge.” That Digital Badge becomes they way to get their return on their investment, you know? How so? Because it’s a way for them to show that they’ve actually made that investment in themselves and they accomplished something and they attained some level of specialized knowledge.
I know I spoke for a long time. I just want to just tie the bow tie on that example of that socially conscious person, that socially conscious business person. Now, the next woman is at a company, and she wants to change companies and go work for a socially conscious business company, so instead of buying books, she finds two courses online. They’re expensive. They’re a grand each, on socially conscious business, and they deploy Digital Badges, and they’re focused on student outcomes, so she makes the investment herself and spends a grand and a grand, and five weeks, and 10 weeks, and now when they both walk into the interview of the company, the one guy says, “Hey, I learned a lot about socially conscious business. I know your company is. I want the job.” He’s like, well the interviewer says, “Well, what do you know?” He says, “I bought this book, that book, this book, that book.” He’s like, “Oh, okay. Great.”
Next, the woman comes in, sits down, and he says, “You know, we’re a socially conscious business. What do you know about it?” She says, “With your permission, can I come over on your side of the desk?” The entire relationship has shifted, and she says, “Well, just pull up my LinkedIn.” She pulls up her LinkedIn, and, “You see this course and that badge? You see this course and this badge?” The guy’s like, “Yeah, that and a quarter will get you a telephone call.” She’s like, “No, no, no. Click the badge.” This is what I think Mozilla’s done that … This is the beginning of a trend that’s going to shake online education globally. It’s doing it already, but in a very beginning phase. The guy clicks it, and it instantaneously takes him back to the educator’s site, and it’s her encrypted portfolio, and it says, “Congratulations. This is the date. This is when she passed,” and it talks about all the criteria of the course, so the person can actually see, “Oh, it was 10 hours. 15 videos. Quizzes. Final exams. Blah blah blah blah blah.” Then it talks about her new skillset, and she’s like, “Now click the next one.” Then once again, boom, more stuff.
This person walks out of that interview with a completely different relationship to the chance to get that job, and the reason why is because she has a way to get a return on her investment. That is now quantifiable, and you know what? She is going to get the job. This to me, like your question was an amazing question. There’s a lot of things that we do strategically, but this concept is so big that this is the one I try to convey to my customers, is that we’ve got to get on board with this and everything else will come together. Does that make sense?
Chris Badgett: That makes total sense. That’s really cool, and I’ve often thought about this issue of jobs, education on the path to job or career, and how when we live in a world with increased uncertainty, I actually see a huge opportunity for employers to say … To put together like a course or some kind of learning track for certain position or the HR department, whereas like for example, I run a web agency, and I almost never ask people where they went to school. I actually care about what they’ve done and things about their personality, and how they interact with clients and things like that. If I wanted to build a … I could actually piece together, like, what I believe is the perfect set of skills required to be a perfect fit for that role, but I might, as an employer, I may have a very different story to tell than what that person might hear if they go to their community college or university. Like, “This is actually what I want and I will pay you however much money, salary, and benefits, and all this stuff, if you have this skillset which is diverse.”
I just see the job market shifting that way as the world becomes more uncertain, as there’s more automation. The skills required and the fluidity that businesses and economies change, it’s really hard for a traditional education system to keep up. It doesn’t mean it’s not necessary, but it’s a funny situation where one of my biggest complains is, as an employer, and a lot of employers will say this, like, it’s hard to find good people. And what a lot of great people say is it’s hard to find good jobs. Well, what connects those things? Learning. Learning connects those things. It just needs to be the right kind of learning.
I was reading an article recently on some kind of e-learning news site and it was trends for 2017, and one of those was the rise of accreditation and certification through badges or certificates and whatnot, but what’s going to end up happening according to this article is that people will start creating their own certificates that aren’t necessarily like … They might be kind of unique. Like, I may say, like, “Okay, if you go through all this training, which may seem random on the surface, all these different skillsets, you’re going to be a perfect fit for my company, or this kind of job.”
Mike Weiss: Yeah.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, but go ahead.
Mike Weiss: Yeah. What you’re saying is so true. Like, I have a … One of my clients, he’s created a likeability course. You know when you’re hiring that, like … You’ve probably never heard of a likeability course. I never heard of it. The guy is just an awesome guy. When he told me about it, I was like, “That’s strange.” But people were very self-conscious about how likable they are, and they become maybe introvert because they don’t feel like if they are themselves, they’re going to be liked. If you’re an employer and you have, like, your project management people, they need to be likable, because they have to relate to your customers, where maybe the programmers don’t.
If you knew, like, you were going to scale and say, “Okay, I need 20 project managers, and these are the skillsets that I know that I need, because it’s the winning formula,” you could actually reach out and say, “Okay,” to this client, the likeability course, you can find four or five courses in their four or five disciplines that you know they needed, and you could actually say to them, like, “I want to put together an internal training. I’ll pay you per seat. Can I have your course and put it as part of our internal training?” Then you could actually have people go through it before you actually even gave them the job, and said, “Look, this is my requirement to become an applicant. I’ll pay for the training, so even if you don’t end up working here, you’re going to be much better off, but this is a prerequisite even before you come into the application process.”
The application for what you’re describing and for what we can do now is just as much as you can imagine, we can create, and specialized knowledge is what’s going to differentiate people as we move through the process, you know? This is great for a company looking to hire people. One of my customers is a digital marketer, and I consulted, coded, designed, built, launched, and hosted all nine of their certification programs for them, and some of those folks are doing it just to improve their own knowledge so they can be better at digital marketing, and some of them are newbies that are going through each of the certifications, and deep, deep, deep, and then going out and practicing, getting certified, and then creating at-home businesses. Those Digital Badges become their marker, where for the first time now they’ve got social proof that they at least meet a standard in an industry.
Digital marketing, you know, you don’t go to college for Facebook advertising, so how do you tell if someone’s good at Facebook advertising or not, or blog creation, or email marketing? All the core areas. There’s no standard, and so now there’s a way for kind of like digital marketers to create their standard.
I will share with you that in every industry there’s the “pooh-poohers,” right? The pooh-poohers are saying, “Well, anybody can create a Digital Badge, so that Digital Badge carries any weight. Because Harvard’s badge has been around for a long time, Harvard’s badge carries weight. It’s an association that approves coursework, so it’s accredited for a college credit, then stamps all courses in colleges because they went through the association as a college accredited. That makes them great.” Well, the bottom line is what makes a course great is if a student gets an outcome, and in my opinion, because of the outcome, they can change the directory of their life. Who’s to say a Digital Badge is good or bad, or it doesn’t carry weight? The bottom line is that it’s going to prove itself, right?
That’s, like, Digital Marketer. I love Ryan Deiss and Richard Lindner and those guys, and they’ve been great to work with, but at the end of the day, I don’t think they imagined how powerful the program would be because they didn’t truly understand the power of Digital Badges. Not that I did either. I knew that they were powerful, but now we’re seeing firsthand how they just shift the relationship of, “Okay, there’s a beginning and there’s an end, so I’m coming in with the expectation to finish,” and also how to connect those dots for people so they can actually have a live digital report card, which is there and available for them to get a return on their investment for the rest of their career. It’s totally cool stuff.
Chris Badgett: That is really cool. What Mike’s doing here, is he’s really elevating the conversation and what we see in the landscape. Information products like online courses is not just about taking book content or just some blog posts and like packaging it in a membership site and calling it an online course, which has higher perceived value. It’s about, like, creating real outcomes for people, and that’s the difference between the ones that work and the ones that don’t. The best marketing is a good product, and if somebody goes through a …
Mike Weiss: Great quote.
Chris Badgett: Do you know who … I’ll give credit. I don’t know where that came from, but that is a …
Mike Weiss:Great quote.
Chris Badgett: It is a good one, and as somebody goes through a course, whether it was made by the company that was offering the job, or let’s say an entrepreneur saw an opportunity, like, “Hey, I work at Google and I noticed that these five people, you know, are not like everybody else, or they’re not pedigree, but they still got in here. How did that happen?” And then he talks to them, figures out, “Oh, this is actually the magic formula to kind of self-style, get a job at Google,” or wherever. You can create, like, training content around that, and then over time if it works, other people are going to take off. Google might endorse it, be like, “Keep doing what you’re doing, because you’re sending great people through your certification program.” These are the things that happen when real results happen, which only makes the platform, the online course, the training even stronger.
Mike Weiss: Totally. Yeah. I know, like, we were supposed to spend more time together, but you and I when we had our scheduled call, we got in such a deep conversation before we actually went live. We sucked up a lot of time, which is great, because it was really deep, and awesome, and juicy. I do want to make sure that we at least cover some of those other additional engagement topics that I think are important, along with the Digital Badge. I think, Chris, this is … We’re really getting to know each other now, so we’re going to have an opportunity to do a bunch more of these together. I love your passion and what you’re doing, and how you’ve created the opportunity for all folks that have specialized knowledge to go out and create a product and give it out to the world.
I know we both believe that education is part of the solution to, you know, helping this world heal and move into a better place, so I think we’re going to end up having a lot of conversations like this. How much time do we have left? Let me just gauge it. I want to go through those, so, yeah.
Chris Badgett: Yeah. Let’s do a lightning round on that, and then we’ll plant some seeds of what … We’ll do some more of these, and tell people where to go in the meantime.
Mike Weiss: Yeah, perfect. The things that I speak about, and some of these are proven, meaning that you can go on Google and look them up, not that that means that they’re proven now. Some of them are just the ones that we know that work. I’ll share that for us, at Client Engagement Academy, we consult, we design, we build, and we host, and because we’re in the business of hosting, I’m looking at real data all the time. When I talk about what’s working, what’s not, it’s because we have a lot of companies that we’re managing their sites from. We’re seeing, and we’re constantly making incremental improvements for all of our customers and sites, based on their customers’ feedback.
If there’s one that I will harp on that I think is ultra-important, it’s being able to understand your data. When we say, “Okay, Mike, what is going to make us more successful with increasing those completion rates from 3%, 5%, 10%, 12%, to 20% or even 30%, that would be a 200% or 300% increase. I’ll share this. I can share it because I spoke at Traffic and Conversion, and last year I did a case study, so the completion rates were on average around 40% for a digital marketer. That number is just, it’s outrageous how high that number is, because those certification programs, it’s not like a course. We’re not comparing a Udemy course at 8% to 40%, because those certifications are intense, there’s a lot of content, there’s quizzes. The final is a 66 question final. Like, you’ve got to know your stuff to complete. If it was, like, a fluffy course, I’m sure it would be at 60% or 70%. What we’re doing is working, and so the things that we’re putting in along with Digital Badges, which to me is, for every traditional course you have to have that. That’s one. We have to have quizzes and certifications.
All these things, you can just go on Google and look, and look up “Adult education, quizzes, certifications, do they work?” And the answer is yes. Adults like to be quizzed, and they like the challenge. It helps boost confidence and engagement as well. If they know that there’s a quiz that’s coming at the end of a lesson, they need to pass it to go on to the next lesson, then that helps all areas of that. A lot of this stuff also, we have to thank the online universities, which is one thing that we didn’t talk about today, but they sucked wind when they first invented themselves, because they didn’t figure out how to engage people online, and they had high failure rates, and a lot of them went out of business. That is a lot of them that are very successful because they’re sort of crossing over between the traditional brick and mortar and the online world, and then there’s studies that they put out now. The quizzing is stuff that comes from the online universities. Like, if they don’t graduate people, they’ve got to go out of business, which is a lot harsher reality than, say, an online educator. A lot of this stuff comes from that.
It’s certification and quizzes. Reporting is crucial. Like, you’ve got to know your data. For what we do, we know exactly where every single student is at any specific point in time, which allows us to measure the velocity of the students going through the course, the average number of days it takes from lesson to lesson, where we’re looking at the quizzes they’re getting, the comprehension scores. We’re looking at engagement on the videos, drop-off rates, so we’re looking at … There’s so … Activity into the site. I don’t know. There’s like 40 different sort of topics that we can look at data on, but that’s imperative, because you have to make adjustments. That’s where, when you talk about another facet of gamification, or I call it “prizification” comes in, it’s like, we know that works. You just can’t randomly add gamification, because it’s going to have no effect. Where would you put gamification in? The place where people are getting stuck. They could be getting stuck just because that’s where everyone naturally gets tired in a course, which is in the second week. Gamify it. But unless you know your data, it’s pretty hard to figure out where to help motivate people.
Quizzes, reporting, gamification. This one’s a big one as a client pathway: Algorithms. I’ll just spend a really quick second on this. Back in the day, before learning management systems, when someone bought a course, you sent an email with 10 links to 10 modules. We were like, “Whoa, that’s bad, because they can just forward the email and everyone gets our content.” Then they said, “Oh, let’s put it behind a login,” so they did that. Then it was like, “Oh, the first membership site.” Then someone said, “Oh, that’s bad, because when they log in, they’re getting all 12 lessons from once. It’s like drinking out of a fire hose.” This is funny stuff now, right? “It’s like a fire hose. It’s going to overwhelm them. They’re going to get stuck.” True.
So then the next genius, which I think is ingenious, it was one of the worst things that people moved in a trend to, was locking down the content. Someone said, “Oh, this is a good idea,” without thinking through it. That, “Let’s … 10 modules over 10 weeks, and that’s our prescription, and they have to go week by week. If we restrain them, they’ll get a chance to digest. They’ll get through it. We won’t overwhelm them, and we’ll do something that’s good.” Bad. Worst. Terrible decision, because 25% of your customers are going to be type A people like me that act fast, talk quick, and if I see something that I want, and I buy it, if you drip it out, by the second week that you torture me, I’m out. You literally, if you say, “How is it only 12% completion rates?” Well, take 25% of the people off the board if you’re just purely dripping content, because you’ll torture them and they will not complete it, right?
You need to have a dual client pathway where you’re going to be able to control the experience through and also get people to go through as quickly as possible, not randomly jumping around, in your pathway, as long as they’re comprehending. That means they can take 10 modules and do them in two days, as long as they’re passing each one, which is the gateway to open up the next. It’s getting to figure out how to focus on that pathway.
What else? LMS course structure, that’s your bailiwick, so that to me is critical. Like, you know, if someone can’t figure out where they were, where they are, where they need to go within five seconds of logging in, you lost them. It’s got to be intuitive, for the student we’re talking about. Most all people stink at technology, so the LMS is critical. Your program is an awesome program. You come from being an educator, a technologist. An evolution of, you know, you just keep getting better and better, is driven by the customer’s experience. That’s critically important, is a great solution like yours. And then responsive design. It seems weird that we’re even talking about this, Chris. It’s 2017, but, you know, there’s so many online education platforms that are not responsive. It’s just old technology that’s antiquated, and if you’re … I don’t have my phone, but if your course doesn’t play on any device, any which way you turn it, anywhere in the world at any time, you’re toast. Now we’re up to almost like 60% of video being consumed on mobile devices. If you don’t play well on a mobile device, you’re toast.
Also, there’s a study out there- people can look it up on Google- that I think 60% of the LMSes will be replaced over the next 24 months, because the lifestyle of the LMS architecture of that software just in the last five years has gotten antiquated. Even people that were, like, early on when LMS and have had them, and are using the ones back from three or four years ago, they’ve got to be replaced. The product replacement cycle is driving right now, like, I think it’s a billion dollars or plus, into new investment of the new architecture and software like yours. That’s critical, and then of course Digital Badges. Those are the ones, boom boom boom boom boom. There’s a lot more, but that’s what we got.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Well, Mike Weiss, ladies and gentlemen, Client Engagement Academy. Mike also has a course out where he’s taking his best knowledge that a lot of his high paying clients use, and he’s publishing that for you to get some of his best strategies. That’s called E-Learning Engagement and Profit Mastery, so go check that out, and before we sign off here, Mike, is there anywhere else you want to point people to find out more about you and what you’re up to? And of course, if you’re listening and you enjoyed this, Mike’s going to come back on the show and we’re going to do this more, so thanks for coming on the show, Mike.
Mike Weiss: Yeah. Client Engagement Academy is the website, but somewhere on the page if you’ll put a link, the course is basically a super deep dive of everything that we’ve spoke about today and more. It’s outrageous. It’s for people that are just thinking about creating a course, because this is stuff you need to know prior to creating it. It’s for people that have courses, and then people that are doing really big business with courses. It kind of fits the entire gamut. There will be a link for that. We also actually have a free course, like a mini little free course as well. We have just a ton of content, and we’re going to continue to put it out. Client Engagement Academy, we’ll put the link below, is the best place to find me.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on the show, Mike.
Mike Weiss: Awesome. Thanks for having me.