In this episode Mark shares about his background in web development and how he got into WordPress. He talks about his experience with building an online wedding planning website and WordPress Forms. And then getting into licensing and white-labeling that product for sale through companies like Conde Nast.
Mark Westguard is the co-founder of WS Form. A WordPress form plugin that provides an easier platform for building complex forms. He has been in the web agency business for over 26 years and adopted WordPress about eight to ten years ago.
He mentions that WS Form is capable of building more complex forms with conditional logic. Order forms for complex products, and integration with WooCommerce. Finally, he discusses the integration with Lifter LMS and how WS Form can be used to create quizzes and surveys for online courses.
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Chris Badgett: You’ve come to the right place if you’re looking to create, launch, and scale a high value online training program. I’m your guide, Chris Badgett. I’m the co-founder of Lifter l m s, the most powerful learning management system for WordPress. State of the end, I’ve got something special for you. Enjoy the show.
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of L m s Cast. I’m joined by a special guest. His name is Mark West Guard. He’s from the incredible form plugin w s form. Welcome to the show, mark. Hey
Mark Westguard: Chris, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Chris Badgett: Mark and I just caught up in person recently at work camp us. It was a lot of fun and I wanted to get him out here in front of you all and look at his story in the WordPress community, but also WS Forum and the integration he’s doing with lifter l m s related to it. But maybe take us to the beginning. You know, there’s so many different form options and how did you kind of come in on the WS form? Like what’s the angle there and and what year did, what year was that that you, you started?
Mark Westguard: That was, I would wanna say about four years ago now. So around about 2018. I’ve had a, a web agency for about 26 years, so I’m you know, the Netscape Navigator type of guy from way, way back. And yeah, we, we adopted WordPress. I want to say probably about eight to 10 years ago. It, I was introduced to to it by my team. They went off to a work camp, came back, told me all about it. We adopted it as a, a, a new, basically a content management system for our customers. I used to write content management software many years ago. I actually wrote one of Sony’s first websites. And they wanted a, a way by which to sort of modify products on their websites.
So adopting WordPress was a good move for us because you’ve got an existing platform there. Open source. We really enjoyed working with it. And I’ve always had a sideline business. I’ve always had something on the side that I work with. I used to own a a wedding company that used to do wedding websites and wedding planning. And we were one of the first companies out there to give brides and grooms the ability to actually build an online wedding website. We originally tried to go direct to consumer with it found it was absolutely saturated.
And in the end we white labeled it and sold it through Conde Nest, who, who owned Brides Magazine. They did like Vati Fair Magazine, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. once we got them signed up, we signed up, you know, the rest of the wedding planet out there. And it was a, you know, a good time and that was kind of my forte into the, the licensing world.
And then few, you know, a few years later I wanted to get back into it again and decided, look, let’s build a WordPress plugin. So spoke to the team, said, you know, where were, where are we having challenges and forms came up and it was really just a case of we wanted a, an easier platform for building complex forms. Yeah, contact us forms. There’s plenty of plug-ins out there for doing that, but the types of clients that we work with were a little bit more advanced. They had more of a complex need for a form and building those things were a challenge. So, you know, you usually had to install 2, 3, 4 plugins to, to get it to do what we wanted starting.
It was always a challenge. So off we went and decided, okay, we’re gonna build a form plugin, which we thought was gonna be a five, six month project. And here we are still developing it to this day and growing it and building it. But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, it’s, it’s definitely a, it’s a saturated area of WordPress. There’s a, a lot of WordPress form plugins out there. But we’ve been fortunate that we’ve been picked up and we’re, you know, slowly gaining traction in the WordPress world. So that’s kind of the story. It’s, it was really came from a need from an agency to, to build a, a better form platform.
Chris Badgett: I know my mind was kind of opened as a, as I got into websites and WordPress of what forms can actually do and like what they are and what they’re capable of. Cuz at first you just think of like the contact form or a comment form or something like that. But what, you mentioned an advanced use of a form. Like what are some way non-obvious ways that a beginner may not realize a form could power?
Mark Westguard: Yeah, so you’ve got things like obviously you, your basic contact task form, but then you’ve got things like maybe a sales inquiry form where if you’re an agency, you could potentially ask a lot of questions before the person actually can send that inquiry through to you. So you’ve got things like conditional logic that enable you to switch things on and off on a form so that you can make the form appear smaller and it’ll grow over time. So things like maybe an order form for a complex product is, is another, another idea. We also integrate in with WooCommerce as well. So you can put our forms on WooCommerce products.
So you can actually use a form to customize a product on the front end. That might be something like choosing a color adding some text to a product even signing off on a custom product for it’s submitted through to the car on commerce. So that’s, you know, another solution. And then we have a lot of people using it for quite complex calculations, so maybe they want to order something online that requires kind of width, height, length material types and things like that. That’s another area that a complex form can come into to do that. And then you’ve got the back end of it as well, which is, where’s that data gonna go?
You know, a regular contact task form is gonna send you an email but you may want to tie it into Salesforce or to HubSpot or to Groundhog. You may want to push it through to MailChimp, you may wanna create a post in WordPress. So these are all the types of things that WS form can do. So a lot of form plugins out there, we’ll have like a notification system where you can send an email to somebody.
We have an action system where you can add as many different actions as you want. So you can send as many emails out as you want. You can even run custom php so you can run a WordPress book do pretty much anything that you want with it. So the, the, the challenge with the plugin has been to build a platform that is diverse enough to build as pretty much anything that you want with it. But we’ve tried to do that as much as possible within a no-code environment. So really the idea is for a developer to be able to build a complex form very quickly. So, you know, we, just to give you an example, we, we used to charge $600 to maybe $2,000 for a form because we were custom building those forms.
And it would take quite a lot, lot of time. With this platform, you can build those complex forms very, very quickly. And it just speeds up the process and just makes it easier. But I think there’s a tendency with contact task forms for them to be a little bit neglected in the, the WordPress development cycle. But there are just a vital part of getting communication from your customers. So if we can make that easier for people to build, I think all better.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. And I’m on your website now and there’s 60 plus integrations. Yes. I know you’re, I know you’re working on a lifter LMS integration as of this recording. Yeah. Those of you live, but if you’re listening in your earbuds, it’s likely already out. Yeah. Tell us your philosophy around integrations and then tell us about what your plans for lifter are specifically.
Mark Westguard: Sure. Yeah. So what we wanted to do with our integrations is go a bit further than what’s currently available. So mo most form plugins will take the content of the form and then push that through maybe as a contact in MailChimp, maybe as a contact in, I dunno, pipe drive, whatever it may be. What we wanted to do is go full by direction or so you can push data to these integrations and sub data out and populate a form with that data.
But we also, on pretty much every integration that we have, we have a template system built in for them. So, to give you an example with MailChimp, you would click on MailChimp and you would look at the templates within that MailChimp and what it’ll do is it’ll pull down your lists from MailChimp and build a template for every list that you have.
And then you just click on that template and WS form builds a form for you. So it’ll, it’ll put all the main fields in there, like name, email, any custom fields that you’ve got, any tag in that you’ve got in MailChimp. And that’s all automatically. So again, speeding up that process so you don’t have to manually build that form out, pull the filter in, do the mapping testing, et cetera. It’s, it’s all done in one click. The other thing that we have is a debug consult, which comes up when you are developing the forms and it appears at the bottom of the screen. It’s a little bit like the browser inspector and what that enables you to do. We have a populate button on that, which is actually one of the first things we ever built for WS form was this magic populate button.
And when you click on that, it fills the format for you. So it’ll put example data in there, it’ll put example telephone numbers, it will choose colors. It’ll actually do signatures for you, everything in one click. So you just go populate and submit and it’ll submit that form so you can test that form super quick with that integration. So really try to go to town on those integrations. Most of them are o and if your viewers aren’t aware of what O is, it’s just a super easy way of connecting one system to another. So they can just go connect to MailChimp. It’ll go off to MailChimp, they’ll log in, say, yes, I wanna connect to WS form, and that’s it. So there’s no messing around with API keys or anything like that. We just try and make that that process simple.
So we’ve lifter we wanna make sure that we’ve got all of the core functionality that’s there that you have with other form integrations. You’re gonna be able to basically lock courses with, with forms. So, and you’ll be able to put any of the fields that we support on that form. If you wanna do signatures, repeaters, any kind of e-commerce, that’s all gonna be wrapped into it. So you’ll be able to build pretty much anything you want and then tie that in with Lifter. And then we also have user management functionality as well. So you can do user registration, you can do edit profile and that will all be tied in with, with Lifter as well. So yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna go go to town on it and make sure that we cover everything that we can with Lifter for sure.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. That’s super exciting. And I love the user registration stuff cuz you know, not everybody just comes to a site and maybe buys a course or a membership right away, right? Maybe they need to come in through a user registration form or whatever. Like it’s there’s so many different ways you could, you could use that.
Mark Westguard: Yeah, And all the our post manage, so we, we have another add-on, which is a post management add-on, which enables you to create posts you know, any kind of custom post site you want, and the user management. And both of those add-ons are also tied in with a c f tool set pods and MeBox as well. So we if you, if you have a custom post site that you want to create and you’ve got some ACF custom fields associated with that, you can literally go into our templates, choose your post type from the template library, click on it, and it’ll build you a four.
And that will include all the standard post fields that you would expect, like title excerpt slug, you know, the usual fields that you see on the post. And it will actually create fields for all the custom fields that you have in a CF madox tool set and poles as well. That’s fully bidirectional too and those, again, those forms aren’t fixed. You can remove fields, remove mappings, ad fields it’s fully responsive. So we’re actually one of the only form plugins that, that has a fully responsive layout editor, which means you can change the layout per breakpoint, a breakpoint being, you know, the kind of the width, the screen or device that you’re using. So it’s, it’s totally flexible and you can build pretty much anything that you want with it.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. What’s in the future for WS form? Like where are you going with it and, you know, what’s next?
Mark Westguard: You want more?
Chris Badgett: Well, it sounds like it, it does a lot. I’m just curious. Like Yeah,
Mark Westguard: I, I think so one of the things we are working on right now is we want to, we’re kind of waiting a little bit with some of the new starting stuff that’s in the block editor in, in WordPress. Yeah, So we wanna bring some of that forward into, into WS form that a lot of that’s still in beta, so we just wanna wait until that kind of calms down. And we’re clear on where the starting is going with WordPress and in terms of the, the block editor. But starting is a big thing that we wanna put a lot of focus on and just make that easier for people. So right now you can obviously change, you know, fonts and background colors and padding and things like that. A lot of our developers will use custom CSS for light for modifying that.
Chris Badgett: Yeah.
Mark Westguard: If we can bring that into the, the block editor itself, that would be be awesome. We originally worked with the customized tool cause that’s kind of where we would
Chris Badgett: Where we’re,
Mark Westguard: Yeah, And that’s now becoming less and less important. They’re, they’re bringing in that, starting into the actual blocks themselves. So that’s something that we’re working on right now. Yeah, and then also I wanna do some more visual stuff with it. So being able to take, you know, submissions at the moment most people will just push submissions into a post if they wanna present them, and then just use custom PHP coding, like get posts or WP Query to show those posts. Or they’ll use a standard template, they’ll use like an archive template to do that.
But I think it’ll be nice to have some kind of visual stuff that we can do with submissions maybe for polling and, and things like that, like pie charts and other graph features. So there, there’s a couple of ideas there, some of the stuff that we’re going with.But a lot of the time it’s, you know, new integrations that are coming out, new products that are coming out. We’ve just recently did an integration with Cloudflare’s Turn Style products, which is a new capture product which I really like because it’s accessible.
It’s, you don’t have to like click on all the traffic lights to, to get through the, the spa filter. It just does it all. I dunno how it works. There’s some kind of AI going on there that detects if you’re a human or not. But that one I like is, is accessible. There’s no need for the user to interact with it. It just says yes or no. And that can be invisible as well. So they launched that in beta I think a week ago. We’ve already got an integration for it. And so you could use Recapture H Capture or Turns Style on Ws form now.
So it’s keeping up with the industry, basically, you know, what, what new toys are coming out and what can, can we integrate with and what’s the demand. So we’re always listening to our customers. That’s really where the, how we steer the product. I’m sure, you know, you guys do too. Feedback through customer support. We have a feature request page on our site where people can go and say, Hey, this will be a cool feature, and people can vote on that as well. So it’s really about listening to the customer and giving them what they’re after about as opposed to what I’m necessarily interested in . But yeah,
Chris Badgett: That’s how the best products are built. Like, they’ll they’ll literally pull it out of you. .
Mark Westguard: Yeah, . Exactly.
Chris Badgett: Could you I know it took me a while to get it, so but could you explain some of the form terminology to someone who’s maybe newer to forms? Like what is a repeater and why do we want one of those?
Mark Westguard: Yeah, so usually on a form you’re just gonna have a set of standard fields that just stick there. You’re gonna have your first name, your last name, maybe a, an inquiry field with a repeater. Let’s just say for example, you wanted to have a form where you could put in the guest list of people coming to an event. So with a repeater, you could have maybe first name, last name, perhaps age, and you could make that a repeater. So they could add a new row to that repeater so you could,
Chris Badgett: The user on the front end is, is increasing the num the number of inputs.
Mark Westguard: Yeah. Yeah. So they could dynamically increase the number of fields on that form. I e the number of rows for the guests. Other people use it for maybe an order form. So you may have, you know, a dropdown list of here’s the products, the quantity, it may be a price and subtotal, and they can use that repeater to add new rows to that, to that order. And then those repeaters can be used and actually, you know, they tie with our integration. For example, if you’ve got a custom post and you’ve got an ACF repeater, we can actually push that form data into an ACF repeater. So it will appear carbon copy basically from the form to, to what you see on the post.
So yeah, that’s basically what a repeater is. We call ’em repeatable sections. So you, we, we have sections within the sections You have fields and you can just say, yep, I want this section to be repeated. It’s just a checkbox. So that’s, you know, another thing that we’ve tried to do is just make that functionality work. Other four plugin, you have to write breams a code to get it, to get it to work. Ours is just a checkbox. And conditional logic works within that, you know, there’s an another term
Chris Badgett: Conditional. That was my next question. You anticipated that . So what, what can people do with conditional logic and what is it?
Mark Westguard: Oh yeah. Conditional logic is making your form interactive. So based upon what people are typing in or maybe even the page that they’re on and, and values that relate to the page that you’re on, you can make condition logic do different things. So an example may be simple example, maybe you have a form with a bidding and a shipping address, and you may want a checkbox to show that shipping address. You see, you may have a checkbox that says, Hey do you wanna ship this to a different address?
And if they check that, we can then show that shipping section. So that’s conditional logic would be used for that. So we would say something like, if that checkbox is checked, then show this particular section. If not hide dissection. So conditional logic is typically an if that’s the, the condition, and then you have a then and a else. So the then will be, okay, yeah, if that condition’s met, we’ll do this and the else is, otherwise we’ll do something else. Our conditional logic is quite frankly, ridiculous. So what you can do with it well,
Chris Badgett: I’m gonna put you on the spot then, cuz I don’t know the, if the answer’s yes or not. But some people wanna make these like personality quizzes, like Yeah. Where if they enter this answer, they, they, they like this rockstar and this cat then yeah. Like what per what, who are you or whatever.
Mark Westguard: Yeah, yeah. Is that possible? You can do that? Yeah, you can do that. So cause, so cuz so a lot of form plugins out there, they’ll, they’ll have a field and then within that there’ll be a condition that says, if, if this value here equals this, then show this field. I call that field centric conditional logic. Ours is form centric conditional logic. So you’ve got the whole, the whole form to play with. For example, you can say if the form, the sec, the tab, the section or the field is doing something, then do any number of different things that you want.
So, you know, you could say, if the answer to this question is A, and the answer to this question is B and the answer to this question is C, then show this. Yeah. but you could also use that to maybe increment score somehow, you know, see, and then you can say, if this has
Chris Badgett: Like IQ test.
Mark Westguard: Yeah, yeah. That kind thing. So it’s, it’s very, very flexible. We, you know, you can go so far as we have this demo on our WooCommerce site, which is WooCommerce dos form.com, which is like a t-shirt customizer. Okay, and that looks, we actually use our additional logic on that to look at the brightness of the color that you’ve chosen and based upon the color, it will then change the text on the t-shirt from black to to white and white to black. So you can, there’s all kinds of stuff that you, you can do with that.
You can check whether it feels validated, you can check whether the value is greater or less than something. We’re also tied in with things like mouse events as well. So you can even do stuff like if this person does a mouseover event on a field, do a save in the background or any anything you wanna do. Or if they click on this button, then run some PHP on the server site. Yeah, So there’s, there’s a great deal that you can do with the conditional logic and, and make the form interactive.
Chris Badgett: What about for the 55 plus field types? I mean, I think people think of short text, long text, maybe an email address or something, a number. What, what are some field types that people may not even realize they could add to a form?
Mark Westguard: Yeah, so we’ve got all of the core html fire field types in there. So you’ve got things like a progress bar, you’ve got rain sliders and then we’ve got some more custom fields as well that people ask for things like rating fields. So
Chris Badgett: You can wait for a testimonial or, or like a review
Mark Westguard: Kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And you can choose, you know, how many stars you want. You can even change the star character. If you wanna do smiley faces or whatever you wanna do, or what colors you want. That effectively is like a number field in the background. So you can then use that in conditional logic. So you can say, if the rating is less than five, then show a box saying, oh, you know, we’re sorry we didn’t meet your expectations. Give us some feedback. So yeah, you’ve got rating fields, we’ve got signature fields, we have a bunch of e-commerce fields in there as well. So you can actually build order forms with it.
You can tie that in with Stripe. You can tie that in with PayPal to actually take payment online as well. We have navigation fields in there. If you’re doing a multi-step form, maybe with tabs, we’ve got like next tab, previous tab a lot of different fields for just navigating through the form, making that easier.
We’ve got a lot of different validation options as well. You know we’ve got things like tab validation. Where you can’t progress to the next tab unless the current tab is validated. And you can make it so that when that next button’s clicked. It’ll show you all the fields that aren’t validated to, to help the user through that process. But yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of field types in there and some of the add-ons add additional field types as well. So for example, our WooCommerce integration what that does is it adds fields for quantity for the add to cart feature for the cart total for subtotal.
And, you know, we just, you know, one very simple example, sometimes people wanna put the a to cart bun above the, the the price and things like that. Okay. So you can do that with this, this feature. You can actually move the components around if you, if you add an ATO cart button to our format, it’ll actually hide the work, almost add tocar button by default to enable you to move that round wherever you want. And that just behaves like a regular acar button. So yeah, I mean, I could go on for hours about the, the different field types that we have.
And then one of the cool field types that we do have, obviously for like selects check boxes and radios oh. You wanna be able to control the, the list that is, is, is shown the list of items, but with that as you can actually drag a spreadsheet into that select field and then you can map which columns you want. So for example, the label that’s shown to the user, you can choose which column will be used for that.
You can choose which column will u be used for the value that actually gets submitted for the form. And you can even pull out additional columns based upon the selection they’ve made. So if they choose a particular product from a select dropdown. You could then show elsewhere on the form the width and the height of the selection that they’ve made. So it kind of does look up, it’s almost like a Excel spreadsheet or a Google sheet. And you can populate that select actually with a Google sheet if you want. So we have a thing called data sources that lets you pull in data into that field. And you can pull that data from Google Sheets, from even from a, a PHP filter. So you can fully customize how that looks.
Chris Badgett: What are some of your pro add-ons that are the most popular? Is it people like connecting to email marketing tools or Yeah,
Mark Westguard: Yeah. I would say probably the most popular ones we have are the post management and the user management. We have a lot of people wanting to create users and create post content. And then
Chris Badgett: What’s an example, what’s an example post management? Like what’s something like somebody making a directory listing or something?
Mark Westguard: Yeah, So maybe, maybe they’re creating a directory of businesses, for example, and they built some custom fields out. So they probably use something like CPT ui, right, to create a custom post type and then they would use a CF to then add some fill for that, like business address, maybe their logo any other number of fill that they would want for that business. And then the post management add-on would be used to create a form to populate that.
Yeah, and when the post is created, you can say, look, I want that post to be associated with the user that’s logged in. Right. and it should, it’ll actually create posts against that user. So yeah, that’s an example of the post management stuff. The user management is, you know, register, edit, profile, forgotten password and things like that. And then after those, it would be the integrations. It’ll be things like MailChimps very popular. We have a PDF add-on as well, which is quite popular. So that’s actually convert. So converting a form submission into a pdf.
Chris Badgett: What’s the use case for that? Like
Mark Westguard: We have people that have these quite complex pdf d forms that they’ve already got and they want use a form to populate that, so they’ll build that out in html. And then it’ll do like an HTML to PDF conversion. Some people just, they just want a PDF attachment on, on their emails for some reason, I guess. Cuz they, at the end of the day, I suspect that it’s coming out of the printer and someone’s putting it in a filing cabinet still to this day, you know. So yeah, that, that’s, that’s quite popular as well. But as you can see, there’s, there’s a lot of different integrations on there. Some of those integrations are part of the field as well.
Like Google places for example. So that’s a field what that you can pull onto the form and someone can start typing out an address partly, and it will then give you suggestions on the address. And then when they click on address, that will fill out the address part of the form. So you’ve got kind of the auto complete address functionality there. And I could even pinpoint it on a map as well. So yeah, there’s there’s a lot of plugins there out I’d say the email kind of marketing integrations are the most popular in the CRM integrations for sure.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. What was this other thing I saw here? It was your you had a bunch of examples. What did you call ’em?
Mark Westguard: Is that the template library?
Chris Badgett: Yeah, What, tell us about that.
Mark Westguard: Yeah, so we have there’s over a hundred different templates in WS form to get you started with a form. So we’ve got everything from your usual contact us form. We have surveys in there. We’ve actually got integration with the WordPress GDPR functionality as well, which a lot, a lot of people don’t realize is actually there . But in WordPress you can, if somebody, you know, if you, if you wanna be GDPR compliant people need to be able to make data erasure requests and data export requests.
And WordPress has functionality built in for that. So we have some form templates for initiating that process that you can just put on a page and people can just put, type in their email address and it’ll trigger that process. And I think there’s a bit of email back and forth that goes on with WordPress with that, with that feature.
And then you’ve got stuff like calculated fields. So we’ve got some demos in there for like building a mortgage calculator, a loan calculator just showing you how all of that kind of stuff can be built. And then when you install the add-ons like post management, you’re gonna get templates for every single custom post type you have. If you install Salesforce, it’s gonna give you templates through all the objects that you have. So the template library just grows and grows and grows just based upon the, the content that you’ve got.
If you have the Google Sheets add-on, it’ll actually list all the sheets that you have in Google Drive. You just click on one of those, it builds a form for you when they submit the form, it’ll start putting rows into that Google sheet. So yeah, the template library there is, just to get people started, we have a bunch of demos in there as well that show you some of the more complex stuff like the Google places to look up color selectors.
And then, you know, there’s, there’s also with the work commerce integration the work commerce integration’s pretty cool. You just go to a product, you click on the WS form tab on the left hand side under your product details, say, yep. I want to customize this, this product. And it’ll give you a bunch of templates you can work with. So things like product configurators color swatches, multi-step forms, you can choose one of those templates to, to get yourself started. Or you can start from a blank form. So there’s more templates in there, . So yeah, it’s it keeps going.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Mark, this is incredible. He’s at WS form.com. He’s got a lifter integration if you’re a lifter LMS user. So go check that out. Yeah, Any other final words for the people who are either beginners at forums or advanced users or just general WordPress folks? Any, any final words for the people?
Mark Westguard: Yeah, I mean, mean, I would say if you wanna check us out and try us out. We’ve got a demo on the site. You can just click on that at the top right hand site, click on demo. We’ve got a fully working demo that you can play around with. We, and, you know, if you, if you wanna build just a, a basic contact to us from. We have a light edition as well. So we’ve got a light edition which has all the spam features we just spoke about, you know, the new CloudFlare turns style field is in there. So I’ll definitely, yeah, check, check that out and, and give it a go.
Chris Badgett: All right. Well that’s Mark from WS form.com. Thanks for coming on the show. We’ll have to do it again sometime.
Mark Westguard: Absolutely. Let’s do it.
Chris Badgett: And that’s a wrap for this episode of LMSCast. Did you enjoy that episode? Tell your friends and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And I’ve got a gift for you [email protected] slash gift. Go to lifter lms.com/gift. Keep learning, keep taking action, and I’ll see you in the next episode.