How to Get Clients from Instagram with Jake Davey

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In this LMScast episode, Jake Davey shared his experience and expertise in using Instagram for marketing and lead generation.

Jake Davey is a social media expert who specializes in Instagram. He is the owner of a website called Jakeadamdavey. He helps businesses, entrepreneurs, and experts grow their audience and run successful businesses on Instagram.

Jake explains that Instagram is different from other social media platforms because it focuses on mobile use and has a range of built-in tools that allow business owners, entrepreneurs, and experts to connect with a global audience, grow their audience, and run a full business.

He also notes that Instagram users can use clickable links in their bio, stories, and direct messages. In terms of the different Instagram features, the feed is the main way users grow their audience by sharing posts, pictures, and reels. Instagram stories are a screen experience that allows users to share short-form videos, while direct messages are a more powerful way to move people towards a sales conversation.

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Episode Transcript

Chris Badgett: You’ve come to the right place if you’re looking to create, launch, and scale a high value online training program. I’m your guide, Chris Badgett. I’m the co-founder of LifterLMS, the most powerful learning management system for WordPress. State of the end, I’ve got something special for you. Enjoy the show.

Hey, hello and welcome back to another episode of LMSCast. I’m joined by a special guest from across the pond. His name is Jake Davy. You can find [email protected] slash brand. We’re gonna be getting into Instagram, how to leverage it. If you’re a course creator or a coach, or if you have an agency, before we go into the details, welcome to the show, Jake.

Jake Davey: It’s great to have you on. Thanks, Chris. It’s nice to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this yeah. I appreciate the opportunity to come and speak with your audience. I’m with you, of course.

Chris Badgett: Awesome, man. Just at a high level, before we get into it, How does Instagram differ from other platforms like Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter?

What is the Instagram kind of segment of different differentiation in the space?

Jake Davey: Yeah. The, so the first thing I’d say is that h it’s changed over the years and, there’s been a clear. Shift in the platform, what it looks like, how it works, how people can benefit from it over the past few years.

And for some people that’s caused a little bit of frustration for some people. That’s been very exciting. But where we are now, and again, very kind of high level is. The majority of functionality for Instagram happens on the phone. And so it means that as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as an expert, somebody who wants to get their message out there, it means you can connect with a global audience and they’re literally carrying you around in their pocket.

The other thing that, that I like about Instagram, which doesn’t always feature on other spaces is that you it really does have everything built in the sense of you’ve got the opportunity to grow an audience and reach an audience. Through things like reels, but then you’ve also got the kind of the, I don’t say sniper tools, but something that’s a little bit more powerful in terms of lead gen and actually moving people towards a sales conversation, which is Instagram stories and then direct messages.

So it really, it can be a platform where somebody can run a full business through that one platform alone. And you’re

Chris Badgett: And you’re already getting into it, but one of the things that I’ve always found quote challenging, and I put that in quotes, is cuz it maybe it’s actually an opportunity, is that i’ll, I’ve always thought that kind of links were the currency of the internet and Sure.

In Instagram we can get one link in our bio, but what would you say to somebody who’s concerned that you can’t really drop links in Instagram the way you can in other social media posts?

Jake Davey: Yeah it’s a great question. And it’s something I’ve been focused with the business on Instagram since 2016, so it’s been something that we’ve realized right from the start.

With this platform. The, I guess the thing I would. Say is that there are it’s, there are all options to use links and it comes down to how do you use them most effectively. And the link in the bio is the main one that I think most people know about. The second one, which I generally suggest people use or second and third, are those where you can have a link in your story.

And then those where you can have a link a clickable link in the direct message and so generally those tend to be the ones that I personally would recommend and that comes back to how are we using the platform in the first place. Our kind of message, our overarching theme with our clients is that we market publicly.

And we sell privately. That’s why people, people don’t go social media to be sold to. And so long as we get that balance right at the start in terms of what we’re showing public facing, then we can move people through the process, warm them up in that no and trust relationship and bring them into a, an opportunity where you can actually embed links.

And generally it’s for a warmer audience, people that are more likely to take action and first, the

Chris Badgett: uninitiated, could you just briefly touch on the difference between the feed, a story and a direct message?

Jake Davey: Sure. Yeah. So the Instagram feed is if somebody opens up their phone, maybe having never used the platform before or used it quite infrequently the Instagram feed, like Facebook Twitter, I guess TikTok is where you open at your phone and you can scroll through and you generally see other people’s content, other people’s pictures, other people’s post, other people’s videos.

And you can contribute to that by sharing your own post, your own pictures, your own reels reels being short video and tho that content can be seen by a, an audience across Instagram. And it can also is the kind of the main way that you would grow your audience. The Instagram stories, which is the second part you mentioned stories are.

It’s like a whole screen experience similar to what you would expect on most of the platforms. Now, whole screen experience stays on the platform for 24 hours. A lot more immersive can be a lot more personal, a bit more off the cuff. You wouldn’t necessarily use stories to grow your audience, but you would use stories to engage your existing followers.

And direct message is again, Very simple terms is like email, text message, WhatsApp inside of the Instagram platform that allows you to speak to one or a group of people in a, ultimately in a private format.

Chris Badgett: And what are reels? Or is that’s an Instagram thing, right? Reels and stories.

I’m personally confused on the difference. Okay. Yeah,

Jake Davey: no problem. So reels the simplest way. I’m really glad you asked that because the people, one, one of that, but they don’t ask. So the simple explanation is that reels equals short video. It was predicted in 2017 that by this year I think 85% of the internet would be video, something crazy like that.

And that was before they knew about Covid, right? So we are definitely in a world today where 85% plus of the internet is video. And that includes things like this and, Netflix and all that other good stuff. Reels are short video, which is generally anything up to say 30 seconds or so, people can go longer.

But that would be short video, a bit like a TikTok. And they can be used on the main feed. So you can share a short video, you can share a reel, and it can go to a potentially global audience. Stories can be video, they can also be pictures but that is something that you would share just to your audience and it shows up in a slightly different part on Instagram.

Chris Badgett: Does one of those besides direct message have more reach at least today?

Jake Davey: Rios. So Rios are the thing that, that will give you the greatest amount of reach right now. We’re seeing clients as an example. We had a message from a client last week literally last week. It was incredible. She had used one of the strategies that we teach, one of the specific things we share about Rios.

She’d be doing it for a year. She had about 300 followers. To that point, she’d used some of the things that we’d shared. One of her reels went viral, it had over 10 million views, and she’s now on 18, 19,000 followers. Wow. That, of course, we share the best version. Of course, we share the best stories.

Of course we do. But it just shows that the potential there, so the reach can be absolutely enormous and Instagram reels are definitely the way to do it. Awesome.

Chris Badgett: And now let’s handle some objections for me. One thing I hear from the expert industry and myself.

An example as like a, as a software guy, like I have an online course software at LifterLMS. If our content is not necessarily super visual, like for example, Fitness instructor or yoga instructor to me seems like classic Instagram use case. But what if our expertise is less visual and cinematic or whatever.

How can we still leverage Instagram if we’re not if our modality isn’t like super flashy visual aesthetic, if you will.

Jake Davey: Yeah. So this, I guess two. Two ways I would answer that. The first is let’s assume that it wasn’t the flashiest industry, but you were still, say, in a position where you could put your face out there.

So let’s say, for example, a solicitor right, or a lawyer they might not have the type of content that you think this could be really flashy and exciting. But what they can do is it still makes sense for them to speak to their audience and put their face out there. So in that instance, we would generally recommend, still going down the Instagram reel’s route, short video.

Even though it brings people outta their comfort zone just to, people do business with people. And so the opportunity to connect with your audience and talk about topics that are relevant for their audience will be a natural first step for, say, software companies and those where they generally are a lot more behind the scenes.

First thing I’d say is or we wouldn’t associate with kind of pretty pictures and search. I would then go down the route of some of the lifestyle brands would generally be my advice. And I’ll explain what I mean by that in a minute, but just to reframe that. I’m a huge believer that we don’t need to reinvent the wheel.

Like the last thing I want our clients to do is to have to come or feel, not, they don’t have to do anything, but feel that they have to come up with something which is brand new, totally revolutionary, is just absolutely in, incredible to get the thing that they want, the outcome that they want.

And the reality is that they’re already people on Instagram doing very similar, if not the same to what they’re doing already. So it’s about identifying those people and then how do they model that? And so in that instance, the first thing I would say is, How do we identify some of the market leaders and experts in what they’re doing?

And take a look at what’s already working, would be my natural first step. So it might require a little bit of digging. The second angle would be around the lifestyle signs. And even though, you could say these companies are still pretty visual, but I’d be looking at companies like, GoPro, obviously they they have a lot of user generated content.

Patagonia target, for example do excellent marketing. Again, they’re not software, they’re obviously a store,

Chris Badgett: but they’re a boring business, if you will.

Jake Davey: Yeah. Exactly. People wouldn’t necessarily get excited about that, but I would say Target is one of the best certainly in, in recent years, one of the best accounts that I’ve looked at in terms of their marketing thinks excellent.

The, yeah it comes down to we just gotta think a little bit outside the box, and it’s very much about getting people to buy into you and what you’re about and the lifestyle side.

Chris Badgett: All right. How do we do DM without becoming a spammer? And I ask that in the context of myself as a guy who’s been online for a while, I get a lot of direct message spam, not just Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, everywhere else.

Like how do we DM. With care.

Jake Davey: Yeah. So it used to be a few years ago that you could literally access anybody, you could DM anybody on the pla you still can

Chris Badgett: like, Hey Gary Vaynerchuk, how you doing?

Jake Davey: Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So Gary v would, Gary, we, I think you know, Gary v’s.

Got the videos where he is, he sat in his barbers and he is DMing people in the local area and stuff. I remember that video fondly, excuse me. And So that of, that’s one thing that doesn’t quite work as, as well anymore. One of the ways that generally I, I would encourage our clients to do it is by going through stories.

So generally, if people have an active story, by engaging with that story, replying to that story, and actually starting a, an authentic conversation, it just gives more of an in as opposed to a cold dm. There of course will be accounts where they don’t have active stories. And so in that instance, I would actually start on the content first.

I would start by engaging with their content first, and then you would hope to move that into a direct message conversation.

Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. And what, one more objection for you is what about a mark content marketer or social media marketer that’s concerned with. A lack of evergreen content. If I get it, if I really focus on Instagram, am I gonna get myself on a content treadmill that’s gonna be hard to maintain?

Or is there some evergreen benefits to Instagram content?

Jake Davey: Yeah, it’s a, yeah, again, excuse me. It’s a great question and it’s something that. We’ve even reviewed ourselves recently. And we’re constantly looking at the type of, if I personally am a big fan of Evergreen, I like to think that if I’m gonna take the time to do something, we don’t use it once, and then that’s it.

So I totally get that. The, there’s a couple of things that I would say to that. The first is, the number one type of content I’m encouraging our clients to create is reels. And that’s ver ultimately vertical video. And so vertical video now works on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube.

So it, it immediately allows you, with the click of a few buttons, that you can multiply that content and that reach and that engagement and put it across multiple platforms.

Chris Badgett: Quick side note there, is it okay to repurpose that, that vertical video across multiple platforms, is there any harm in doing that?

I wouldn’t have thought.

Jake Davey: So what the only suggestion I would have is I probably wouldn’t put exactly the same post out on exactly the same day. Let’s say you’ve got a week’s worth of content, whatever you put out on Monday, on TikTok, you would put out maybe on Friday, on Instagram, for example.

But I wouldn’t see anything like that. There was a few issues when people used to use their TikTok videos and put ’em on Instagram and it had the TikTok logo. Instagram would reduce the reach for those posts. But in terms of if it’s a, if it’s the pure video, like in its purest form and putting it out there, then I wouldn’t see an issue with that at all.

So that’s the first thing. The second thing in terms of getting on the content treadmill, again I don’t wanna do that. So I’m looking at well solutions for that for myself, but then also for our clients, and this is where we have something which is called six second reels. So we have a specific formula which which we follow and we encourage our clients to follow, which is called six second reels, which is ultimately we focus more on the process and the outcome.

And by that I ideally, I’m encouraging our clients to create short video, which is up to six seconds, obviously a bit longer, sometimes shorter, sometimes. So it doesn’t take ages and ages to create. They can do a whole month of con worth of content in less than 90 days a month, sorry, in less than 90 minutes a month.

So less than 90 minutes a month, a full month of content that can be across four platforms. I think that’s pretty good right now. I.

Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. And what what’s a posting frequency you recommend? Is this like daily, hourly, weekly? Yeah. Yeah

Jake Davey: Like my heart skipped a beat then. No I personally am, I encourage daily, I think.

I think that’s, That will be the right frequency for me. You will still see people that, that hits it really hard. I know there’s, TikTok, of course, is a newer platform and one of the strategies there seems to be, 5, 6, 7, 8 posts a day. Which again, I think for many people is nauseating.

So I’m a big, I’m a big one on consistency. There’s two key stakeholders here. That we’ve gotta be consistent for. One of those is the audience. It’s one of the fastest way people can build trust. Consistency equals reliability, equals trust. And I think if as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, or as a company, brand, if you can be shown to do the basics consistently and do them right, then you can be trusted in other areas.

But then of course for Instagram, Instagram’s looking for consistency as well. And I think if we give, if we feed Instagram, feed the beast, so to speak then again we give ourselves the best opportunity to get the return that we want as well. Let’s get into

Chris Badgett: systems. What do you recommend for a beginner who’s excited about leveraging Instagram for themselves or for their client to get more leads in sales?

Jake Davey: So, the the fir the first step is to ultimately ensure that they have set up their profile the right way. Let’s take a beginner. So the first thing is it’s a six step process that we share. Number one is to get absolutely clear on what they do, who they do it for, and who their market leaders are.

So those are the first step that I would recommend. From there, I would encourage them to, Optimize their profile. Put all their highlights on their profile, position themselves as an author, as an expert. Quick tip for people that are watching would be put your best, like your absolute standout headline as your, the first line of your bio.

And the reason is firstly, People generally will read the first line more than the rest of it. But also on older devices, like smaller mobile phones and such, I’m holding a phone up at the moment. But on older devices, generally it will only show the first line or so, and then it has a See more link. So I would recommend people put their best features in there and of course, very high level, but, Getting that profile in order is first.

Then I’ll be looking at content strategy again based on maybe market leaders. If they’re coming at this completely green and completely new, then I’ll be looking at what are other people in the space doing? Let’s get some reels out there, let’s do this consistently. Let’s make sure we’re speaking directly to the audience and solving a problem.

From there, I would be looking at growth strategies. We teach three in particular the most powerful. Those is something called growth loops, which would allow people to grow, a few thousand followers in 24, 48 hours. And as you then grow your audience, then the key thing is to capture people with your Instagram stories.

Instagram does a lot of the heavy lifting, and it will generally show the top 10 to 15% of your audience, as in the most engaged followers that you have. It will show them your stories as a priority at the top of their screen. And so as you grow on your audience, if you can get those stories going consistently and moving people off the platform into a landing page. A lead magnet register for a training, booking a call, whatever that might be, that’s your first step.

And if that, If they’re not taking action on the links, there is a way you can see who has viewed your stories and that’s where I would then be going. And we use this to great effect certainly in the last couple of years where you look at people that viewed your stories and then you follow up with those people that have viewed the stories and engage with them that way.

So that is a high level ultimately of exactly what we teach.

Chris Badgett: And all this is without paid ads.

Jake Davey: Yeah. Now we, we use paid ads in our business and we have clients who do go to paid ads depending on, where they are in their business. But generally, the first steps I’m a big fan of encouraging people to at least generate a handful of sales in what they’re doing before they even consider payouts.

I’d like them to build up a bit of a budget before they even look at paid traffic. And what,

Chris Badgett: What do you have, what advice do you have for a pro user who may not know your exact systems and methods, but, they’ve got tractions, they’ve got several thousand followers, and they’re regularly producing content for their audience.

What can they do to grow,

Jake Davey: what to grow at that stage? I would be looking at two things. I’ll be looking at something called growth loops which is where ultimately you tap into a Larger influencers who will promote you from their accounts and you can you can benefit from their followers.

So that will, that’s the, again, very simplified version of that. So you ultimately buy into a promotion from a, an influencer, they will promote you and they’ll, they will ultimately drive a handful more than a handful you would hope of their followers to your Instagram account. The second is I would also then be looking at strategic partnerships.

So I’ll be looking at who are the people who serve the same audience as me, but are non-compete? And again, for a simple version, you might have a yoga instructor and a I dunno, a vegetarian chef. Of course. I realize that’s, huge generalization, A bit of stereotyping, but let’s just keep it simple.

We would generally assume that people that are into vegetarian cooking and vegan cooking such may also. Be making mindful choices about their, their exercise and such. So I would then also be looking at strategic partners to, to benefit with that growth. And the only other thing I would add is I’d really be looking at, am I converting my audience?

We’ve had people that have come to us with thou, tens of thousands of followers, and they haven’t been generating any sales. And so if they’re not converting their audience, then something in that process is missing. They’re ultimately not making the move from growth and followers into private conversations, and maybe they don’t have a system in place to be able to do that.

Is there a price

Chris Badgett: point? Where it makes sense. And what I mean is if we’re getting into DMing people and we’re sending people to a sales conversation or a webinar, is there a price point at which it just doesn’t make sense? I guess what I’m saying is does this only work for a high ticket businesses or can it work for really any price point?

Jake Davey: I think it can. I think it can work for any price point. It’s. It, it purely depends on the model ultimately. We, I’m a big believer that if people follow the steps and follow the system, that they will be able to drive, traffic into their business. Now if they have a super low ticket mo again, think of people like, the Morrison brothers, for example, that have, I think it’s seven or $10 low ticket entry or something like that.

Chris Badgett: And who are the Morrison brothers? I actually don’t know. Who is

Jake Davey: that? Oh an Anthony and Adrian Morrison. I think they, they did a lot through possibly Shopify maybe. I, again it’s, but they the only reason they come to mind is cuz they’ve used Instagram a lot.

They’ve promoted and talked about the benefits of Instagram a lot. And they have a low ticket offer. But of course, part of that process, anyway part of the process generally that we recommend with our clients is building a database. And so does it only work for low ticket? I’m sorry?

Does it only work for high ticket? No, I don’t think so. I think it works for low ticket as well. It ultimately is about putting the right offers in front of the right audience, but it doesn’t I guess the thing I would emphasize is that obviously you will know this, but again, just clarify for the audience is that the, the bigger the investment, the bigger the ask.

And therefore if it’s a low price point or a low ticket, if it’s a $7, you could be selling that or $47. You could be selling that directly from your stories and you never need to DM anybody. If it’s getting people onto a phone call or investing, a few hundred dollars perhaps, or a few thousand dollars, then you probably do need to go through that process of dms.

So I think there is that balance between the two. And if it’s low ticket, then it probably requires fewer things on the front end in terms of the dms, but you would want those things in your stories. You’d want those links in the right places on your profile as well to still drive your traffic into the right part of the business.

Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Can you tell us a little more about buying into a promotion of an influencer? What does that mean and how do we do it? Yeah.

Jake Davey: So the let let take a, so if we, let’s take an example. Let’s say you are a let’s say you’re in the fitness industry and you’ve got 50,000 followers.

And that the first thing is that you are looking out for people in that space who offer. Promotions. And so there are specific companies that you might find and specific influences that will do this, but there may be influencers who have, let’s say a million or 2 million or 5 million followers and they will run a promotion where they will speak to their audience and they will basically say I’m running a competition.

This is the giveaway. It’s some crazy giveaway. Either cash or devices or whatever it might be that’s appealing and relevant for that audience. All you need to do to enter is do A, B, C, D, E, and one of those things is go and follow all the people that I’m following. And so this influencer will reduce the number of people that they’re following down to anybody who is involved in that route.

So what that means is that if you are one of the people that buys into that promotion, you are one of the people that influencer with 2 million, 5 million followers is following. And therefore you would benefit from all of their act. Realistically it’s their most active, most engaged audience who are most hungry for that particular offer that are then gonna come and follow you as part of that.

And It can be it’s ultimately, it’s just another way, it’s another way of marketing. And people will invest anywhere from, $10, $50 up to 5,000, 10,000, $50,000 into these engagement groups, depending on who’s in the promotion, what the offers are, what the benefits are, what the outcomes could be as well.

So one of the things again, that we teach is how to find those groups. And then how to set up and position your account and your content the right way and your follow up so that if, let’s say somebody promotes you, you’ve got an influx of, I don’t know, let’s say conservative, 5,000 followers, then what journey do those 5,000 followers go on where you could potentially convert them into leads, clients, and customers?

That is

Chris Badgett: awesome. I didn’t even know that existed. And you said there’s There’s you can work with influencers directly, but there’s also like agencies or organizations that help set up those collaborations. Is that right? Yeah,

Jake Davey: So that the influencer, let’s say, who’s got the 2 million followers, they probably.

They wouldn’t have had much idea about that originally. They will have been approached by somebody who said, I’ve got a really good idea where I can help you make some money here. And here’s how it works. So yeah, generally there will be a, middle person that gets involved. It offers those promotions.

So there’s, yeah, there’s multiple out there where you can, yeah, you can ultimately leverage those types of group those types of promotions and therefore that type of growth.

Chris Badgett: Tell us about your [email protected] slash brand. What can people find when they go to jake adam

Jake Davey: So there, there is a, there’s a training where we We ultimately walk through the steps similar to what we’ve talked about today, but obviously with visuals and kind of graphics and screenshots and examples about exactly that. How the best way for people to firstly grow their audience. Sec firstly, who it’s for and who are the types of businesses that would benefit from this.

From there, it goes into how you grow your audience. Then we look at how you convert your audience, and then finally different ways that you can monetize. Again, pretty high level, but that’s the it’s more or less what we’ve covered today, but with visuals.

Chris Badgett: Awesome. Let’s let’s land the plane on, let’s say somebody’s creating an online course or a membership site with LifterLMS or any other tool and.

What are like three classic mistakes to avoid when approaching Instagram? If we’re like, okay, I’m gonna commit to Instagram and see if I can grow this marketing channel. What are some three mistakes to avoid?

Jake Davey: So the first mistake is selling publicly. It, it’s landing on Instagram and assuming I’ve got a product, therefore people want to buy it.

And as we know we need to do a little bit more than that. So the first thing I’d say is just being aware of why people are on Instagram in the first place, why people are on social media in the first place and going on there to market publicly and ultimately sell privately, which we’d said before.

The second thing I would suggest is really fo focusing on looking at processes and systems. In Instagram on one hand is beautiful pictures and the. Photo influencers and the celebrities and all this kind of thing. But I processes and so for me, it needs to have a system and a process, and I want to be able to approach it methodically.

So I, I guess the recommendation. Second thing I would have is make sure that it’s a tool that you are using a. Rather than it using you. You don’t wanna be sat there scrolling, watching other people’s content cuz you are being influenced by others. Use it as a tool where you are almost removed from it.

Set up systems, processes so that you can do the influencing of over others. And then the third element is, I guess it might be a little bit cliche. But I would generally say just use it as a tool to actually have fun and build relationships with people. Because, It’s exactly the same as if you were talking to somebody you know what?

Like we’re speaking right now. Or if you’re talking to somebody face to face. I think a big thing in this, in 2023. And moving forward is certainly in the uk finances for many people have been quite tight recently. It may be impacting globally. And so if people want to firstly acquire customers. Then keep their customers, then there needs to be some degree of relationship built up.

And I think people want that. I think we’re crying out for connection. With other people. And it doesn’t have to take long, I think that’s a misconception. The actual relationship side I think can be very enjoyable and very gratifying. And it means that you’ve got, you’ve got satisfied customers as well.

Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. That’s. Jake Davy, he’s at jake. Adam Jake, thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your Instagram with wisdom with us today. Is there anywhere else people can connect with you besides jake adam, perhaps on Instagram.

Jake Davey: Yeah, Instagram’s a good one.

Yeah. Yeah, Instagram. So again, it’s just my full name. It’s Jake, Adam Davy. People are welcome to connect with there. Send me a hello. And yeah just keen to me people see what they’re doing, see if it’s something that we might be able to support them with if they want to grow their drive more traffic into their business.

Yeah, more than happy to, to connect with people on Instagram as well.

Chris Badgett: Thanks, Jake. And that’s a wrap for this episode of LMSCast. Did you enjoy that episode? Tell your friends and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And I’ve got a gift for you [email protected] slash gift. Go to Keep learning. Keep taking action, and I’ll see you. In the next episode.

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