This episode of LMScast with Chris Badgett of LifterLMS is about how to get more leads, students, and affiliates through podcast guesting with Nicole Holland. Chris and Nicole discuss how to leverage podcasting as a course creator and some surprising things you may not have known about podcasting.
Nicole has two podcasts, The Business Building Rockstar show and Get Guest Ready. She has worked in corrections, been a foster parent, an online coach, marketing strategist, and a course creator. Now she solely focus on helping people get booked on podcasts and coaching them on how to get the biggest bang for their buck when they are on other people’s podcasts.
Nicole shares her story of how she got to this point in her career as far as the online world of course creation. She has made a few courses on digital lead generation and mindset courses. She currently has a free e-course, a membership group, and a higher level group program that is all about podcast guesting.
Chris and Nicole discuss some high level tips as far as how to be the best guest you can be when you are guesting on other people’s podcasts. They also discuss some interesting ways you can create relationships with podcasters and do some affiliate work with them.
The world of podcast guesting is probably more approachable for you than you think. As a course creator you can leverage many benefits from being a guest on others podcasts, such as building your network, getting new students, and marketing. There are also a few benefits to guesting on podcasts instead of creating your own podcast. For instance, you don’t have to go through all of the work of building an audience, and you can also guest on podcasts in different topic areas to get your message across to a wider variety of people.
Nicole tells how she accumulated her knowledge of podcast guesting and eventually made a course around it. It was a slow process where she became a podcaster herself and focused on how to improve audio and video quality. From there she started to ask questions like, “What makes a good podcast guest?” She started to notice different traits and behaviors. Nicole eventually launched her business where she brought together interviewing experts. This step by step process can create a real snowball effect that has brought Nicole to where she is today. This process of experimentation can be applied to nearly every category that can be taught in the course creation world.
Chris and Nicole discuss the strategy of targeting your ideal customer where they are instead of targeting them in the setting you are selling your course in. For example if you are selling a fitness related course, instead of targeting them at the gym or on other fitness sites online, you collect data on their traits and target them in another aspect of their life and try to sell them on fitness there. If you are selling primarily to 30-year-old males, then maybe do some research on where 30-year-old men spend a lot of time, and market to them there. When you know your ideal student very well, this type of strategic marketing can yield great success with selling your courses.
You can learn more about Nicole Holland at InterviewsThatConvert.
You can post comments and subscribe to our newsletter for updates, developments, and future episodes of LMScast. Thank you for joining us.
Chris Badgett: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. My name is Chris Badgett, and today we’ve got a special guest, Nicole Holland. She’s a podcaster. She has two podcasts, The Business Building Rockstar show and then Get Guest Ready. This is going to be a really interesting show, because we’re going to get into how to leverage podcasting as a course creator and some surprising things you may not have known about podcasting and how approachable it might be for you to leverage for all kinds of benefits, building your network, getting new students, marketing and sales, and also just having fun and interacting with some great people. Nicole, first, thank you for coming on the show.
Nicole Holland: Thank you so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Badgett: Can you tell us a little bit about your backstory? Who are you? What did you do? Where’d you come from? Tell us about your podcasts.
Nicole Holland: Yes, so that’s a big question because I’m no spring chicken. I have run the gamut of all different kinds of work. I’ve had different businesses. I’ve worked in corrections. I’ve been a foster parent. All kinds of craziness. What I’ve been doing for the last couple of years is working online as a coach, a marketing strategist and a course creator, basically, program creator, content creator. I’ve done a few different online digital products. I’ve done a few that are … I’ve got a membership site. I’ve done a few live delivered programs and a podcaster. I became a podcaster, really, as a marketing strategy because I heard that it was a way to get in front of my target market and to enroll people into my programs and courses.
From that, I really fell in love with the platform to now, I specifically focus and solely focus on helping people get booked on podcasts and coaching them around how to get the biggest bang for their buck when they are on other people’s podcasts.
Chris Badgett: That’s really cool. Well, I can relate to your story. A lot of people are surprised when they find out I wasn’t trained as a technologist or as an entrepreneur. I used to run sled dogs in Alaska for a long time. I’ve had many different lives, but I appreciate that. A lot of that stuff from the foster parent, corrections, all these things come together to make the one and only you because there is only one you. You know, diverse backgrounds bread for lots of interesting perspective, and that’s really awesome. Tell us a little bit, as a fellow course creator, what kind of course creation have you done?
Nicole Holland: Well, I was really exploring what I loved and what would sell. I’ve had a lot of failed courses or courses that I would create. Then, once I was done creating them, I was like, “Meh. I don’t love this and not super excited about it,” but one of my first courses was how to create an irresistible freebie, so lead magnets and really helping people understand the whole process of lead gen from a digital standpoint. What else? Oh, I did a free course as a lead magnet, which was a book study of sorts of Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, so really mindset-focused. I’ve done a couple mindset courses. Yes, and again, now, I’m really focused on podcast guesting. I have a free e-course. I’ve got a membership group. I’ve got an intensive higher level group program that all are about podcast guesting, how to leverage the medium for your benefit to sell courses at the end of the day.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. I love the journey. I love what I would call micro niches or whatever. How did you get not just to podcasting but guest podcasting? How did you discover a passion or a market or whatever around that specific niche?
Nicole Holland: Yes. I think it’s because i just … We each have our own standards, right? We each know what’s important to us. As I became a podcaster, you know, whenever we start something new, we’ve got that conscious and competent mind, right? It’s like we know that we don’t know. Before I became a podcaster, I was unconsciously incompetent. I didn’t know the first thing about podcasting, ut then, I became aware. This could be a really good marketing strategy. Now, I’m going to learn how to be a podcaster, and so I got all the fundamentals down. Then, as I was a podcaster, I started noticing how to get better or what I didn’t like. How to get better audio quality? How to systematize my process to make it faster and simpler and easier? Also, I got to know my audience. I got to know what they wanted, what they didn’t want. I started really getting a feel for what kind of guests I enjoyed having and which kinds I didn’t.
What I found was that just because somebody had tons of accolades or were doing their thing for years and they were very, very well-respected in their field did not necessarily make them a great guest. I also noticed that some people were around for a while, but some were very new. They were fantastic guests, and so I started asking myself, “What’s the difference between somebody who is a great guest and somebody who is a not great guest? What’s my experience with that?” Then, okay. Now I’m seeing these different traits and behaviors, how do I integrate that as a guest? If I do these different things, what are the results that are going to come from that? As a guest, I was basically being my own guinea pig and trying out different strategies. Then, I would see what would happen from those experiences.
Then, I would tell my colleagues of other podcasters. I would tell my friends. I would tell guests. I just really learned about teaching how to up your game all the time. Up level, up level, and I was asked. I was told, “Hey, you need to share this information. You need to share this information.” I’m like, “Ah, okay.” I’m really focused on my summits. I launched my business with what I called the Business Building Rockstar Summit where I was really a trusted resource, bring together and interviewing experts in different marketing strategies. I’m like, “I’m really focused on that. I’m really focused on this, but I’ll do it on the side.” Then, as people were like, “I want more. I want more,” I’m like, “Okay, cool.” I was teaching it more. I wound up doing a beta launch of a program that I called Interviews That Convert where I really taught everything I could about how to be a great guest and conversion and all that stuff.
Then, from there, I kept having people ask me to do more for them. Finally, I said yes. Then, I started offering a VIP level done-for-you service, and then from there, I started offering a mid-level and a free podcast all about it and a free e-course all about it. That’s really been the journey of how I did micro niche. I didn’t expect to. I never ever in a million years would have expected to be where I am today and to be loving it so much, having so much fun and my clients getting enormous results that they didn’t even understand were possible because I found something I cared about just through my own, as a podcaster. I wanted to improve my own podcast and my own life.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Well, Nicole, I just want to honor you as the entrepreneur. The things that you just said there are a classic entrepreneur behavior. You were spotting value. You had pattern recognition. You were a system builder, and you help other people. I mean you just put it all together, as you told your story, I’m like, “Yes, success is inevitable here.” You know, things shift as you go. You know, like you said, people kept asking you for help with that. It started out with Interviews that Convert and just kept evolving and still evolving, and that’s awesome.
Nicole Holland: Thank you.
Chris Badgett: Well, for the course creators out there, what are some strategies or what do they need to start thinking about for using, leveraging podcasts as a way to build their network, get more students, develop high-value relationships? What are the strategies? Why should they to be scared of it? I mean anybody can blog, but I know a lot of people who are doing podcasting. That’s complicated. Talk to those points.
Nicole Holland: Yes. I’m going to argue with you right upfront because while you say anybody could blog, that is like the bane of my existence. I may be a decent writer, but for me to write a blog post, it will take me 10 to 20 hours. I can’t sustainably do that, whereas I can come here, hang out with you for an hour. For me, that’s fun. That’s easy, and it’s done, right? I think the key here is, first of all, as a course creator, you have to know where your gifts lie. If you are able to articulate your value and you’re able to give value, and you actually enjoy it via speaking, then podcast guesting can be amazing. If you’re the kind of person where you don’t want to talk to anybody and you would rather write, then podcast guesting probably isn’t for you.
First and foremost, I want to say, as a course creator, move towards your strengths. Wherever you’re going to market, don’t do something because it’s the hot thing. You know, some people love Facebook live and love Periscope and Snapchat and all those things. Some people have no interest in those things, so that’s first and foremost. If you want to leverage podcast guesting … I forget exactly your question. I’m like, “I’m going to argue,” but the thing is don’t go into it to sell and to enroll students in your course. You have to go into it to build relationships. You’re building relationship-
Chris Badgett: My question was just the strategy, so what is the relationship strategy?
Nicole Holland: Absolutely. You’re building relationships, first and foremost, with the host. I’ll talk about that in just a second about why that matters. Secondly, you’re building relationships with the listeners. It’s an opportunity to be … First of all, you’re able to be positioned by the host as an expert. Secondly, you’re able to speak right into people’s ears. They get to know you. The next step would be to continue that relationship with them and giving them an opportunity to see more of your value outside of that podcast and where you’re really the star of the show rather than the supporting act. Then, you can sell them. You can get them into your indoctrination series or whatever it is you have set up to move that lead to a sale, but don’t go in there to sell. Go in there to build relationships.
Now, with the host, you have a great opportunity because they might be interested in buying what you have, but they also might be interested in referring you to other people. They might be interested in becoming an affiliate for you. If you’re doing your homework right upfront, and you’re only getting on shows that are the right audience for you and the right fit, then there’s a really good chance that that host would be interested in a potential joint venture partnership where they promote your program. They get recurring revenue from that. That’s very, very common when you are on the right shows.
Chris Badgett: If I’m researching and I’m going to implement a relationship building strategy for my course, let’s say I’m doing some kind of a fitness course, what would I do? What kind of show should I look for?
Nicole Holland: Yes, so that’s a great question. What most people would probably tell you was look for fitness-related shows, right? That’s the initial gut reaction and what’s expected. What I teach is a little bit different. I teach that it doesn’t matter what your industry is as much as it does who your student is, who your ideal student is. They’re complete people, right? They’re live in 3D, and they have complete lives. If you can really dig into who they are rather than what you sell, obviously, the transformation that you offer through your program has to be a value to a particular person. When you can identify who that person is, you know, is it a 20-something millennial exec male, right, with no kids, no spouse, no nothing? Is it a 30-something-year-old mother who’s a stay-at-home? Everybody’s going to be sold to differently, so when you know who your ideal student is very clearly, then you can figure out what are they listening to? They’re not always going to be listening to the fitness show.
They might be listening to, like if it’s a mom of teen girls, she might be listening to parenting shows for parents of teen girls, right? Dealing with those emotional things and depression and SATs and all that stuff. If you can find a way of seeing yourself to be a value to that demographic as you, so for example, if you are a mom of teenage girls, then you may be able to tap into that audience that the host has, knowing that you can provide the value the host is looking for, the listeners are looking for, and oh, by the way, this is what you do. Then, you can develop a relationship and be seen as somebody that’s relatable, that’s trustworthy, that is enjoyable. Oh, by the way, you also solve another problem they have that they’re not tuning in for.
I’m not sure if that was just too much information at once because it is complex, but think about this. When you go on a show, at the top of the show and at the end of the show is generally about you as the guest. Who are you? What do you do? How do you help? Great, so you start at the beginning. You end with that. In the middle, it’s all about whatever the host wants to talk about. It’s all about the value that the audience is listening for. Again, you’re looking for those relationships where you can be seen as somebody of value, trustworthy and oh, by the way, this is what you do.
People will remember you that way rather than if you’re going on a show. You may or may not have results. I mean I wouldn’t say, “Don’t go on shows that are fitness related,” but also open your mind to these other shows because if you’re going on a show that’s fitness related, then you’re just one of many, many, many guests who’s all talking about the same thing, who’s all pushing similar services, whereas when you’re outside and you’re just being a whole person, you’re going to find those people who are going to resonate very strongly with you.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Just to piggy back on that, the advice for anybody listening if you’re also creating a fitness course is you really need a niche. If your niche is emptiness of moms, they’re going to be listening to some other shows or maybe they’re trying to … Maybe there’s a show about relationships are you get older. Your kids are no longer in the house and rekindling stuff or fitness after 50 or whatever. There’s all kinds of places. Like you’ve mentioned, that three-dimensional person. If you know them well, you can find out all these other parallel interests that they have and tend to have in common with other people like them. I really love that point.
Nicole Holland: Thank you. I will say too. When you can go to a host with a fresh perspective and a fresh story, not the same thing that everybody else is coming to them with, you have a much better chance of building that rapport and getting the yes to be on the show, because again, if everybody or if you’re going on a show for moms of teenage girls about how to deal with those troublesome years or challenging years or whatever. Probably, a lot of people coming to that host are therapists or professionals who are in the field that teach about this thing and are coming from that clinical standpoint.
If you can go and say, “Hey, you know, I am an entrepreneur. I’m a course creator, and I can speak to how to get through these times as you’re trying to build your business or as you’re serving your clients or as you’re doing this. This is why I’m passionate about it. This is what I love about your show. This is what I’d love to bring because I really think it would be a lot of fun. We’d have a great conversation. What do you think?” Wow, right? That’s way more exciting and enticing than saying, “Hi, this is what I specialize in. I would like to be on your show just like everybody else wants to be on your show to talk about the same thing.”
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Well, let’s dig in a little bit around that affiliate strategy, because I get a lot of people. A lot of people building courses. Maybe they’re trained as teachers or they’re experts. They finally got the course launched. They’re starting. They may not have a lot of training in marketing or internet marketing. They know what affiliate marketing is. I hear the question a lot. “How do I recruit super affiliates? How do I find good affiliates for my course or my membership site?” Tell us a little bit more about if you were advising the course creator to do affiliate recruitment through podcasting, what would you tell them to do and not to do?
Nicole Holland: Great question, and it’s going to be the answer that I give for everything, just about, which is build the relationship. I can’t stand when people are coming at me, telling me about the great opportunity they have for me to be an affiliate for them. I don’t feel like they care about me. I don’t feel like they know what my motivations are because if they did, they never would come at me that way. What I recommend to my clients is have that affiliate program in place and that possibility to have them as an affiliate, but don’t come at them about being an affiliate. You first have the call. You first do the interview. If you feel, “Wow, this was really great. I’d love to see if they’re interested because I just impressed the host. The host impressed me. We just had great fun. I want to talk to them again, and I believe that their audience could really benefit from my program.” Then, you get to say, “Hey, you know what? Would you be interested in this?”
For example, let’s role play that out, Chris, because I have decided to set up a page. This is one of the strategies I share with my clients. I’m going to set up a special opt-in page just for our listeners, right? With that, what I would say to you at the end, which we’ll do right now, would be, “Hey, is it okay if I create an affiliate account for you so that if anybody from your audience decides that they’d like to get my free gift, that they’ll actually get tracked? I’ll have a six-month cookie on that which means that if anybody becomes a customer or client, then I will be able to pay you a referral fee. How does that sound to you?”
Chris Badgett: Sounds great.
Nicole Holland: Who would say no to that, right? There’s nothing that you have to do for me. There’s nothing that … I’m just asking you. I think your audience will find value in this. If they do … I’m not asking you for anything. It’s an easy yes, and it’s a completely different place than if I come to you and say, “Hey, Chris. Can you offer …” It’s just different.
Chris Badgett: That makes a lot of sense. Yes, I really appreciate that. I’ve seen that as somebody who’s been around affiliate marketing for a little bit, that when you make it easy and there’s a relationship first, it’s just how it goes. It’s all about the win, win, win, win, triple win, everybody wins and making it easy on affiliates and forming these partnerships.
Nicole Holland: I want to follow up with that, that once you say yes, awesome. Then, if I want to come back to you and say, “Hey, Chris. Would you like … I mean totally not necessary, but if you think that what I have has a value, I’d be happy to give you a little banner to put on your website. I can make something custom for you, if that’s of interest to you. What do you say,” right? Then, maybe, “Oh, and you know what?” If they’re getting excited and they’re like, “Yes,” because a lot of podcast hosts are not monetizing.
Then, a lot of podcast hosts don’t understand affiliate marketing, but they want to monetize, so they are getting their affiliate tracking thing from audible and from all over the place, but they’re not making any money. You know, by being able to make it really easy and to say, “Is that interesting? Totally not necessary, but if you want to do that.” If they’re into you and they’re enjoying your time and they believe that what you have is a value, there’s a good chance that if they do, if they are willing to put something on their site, they’d be like, “Yes.”
Another idea is, “Hey, you know what? I don’t know if this is of interest to you, but some of my partners actually do ad spots. I don’t pay for advertising, but what it would be, would be a revenue split, right? If you’re interested in promoting my program, my course on your site, on your podcast, then we can definitely talk about that. I can give you some swipe copy. I can give you whatever. You can really make it your own, and then you will receive that commission on any sales. How does that sound,” right? You’re just listening to them, and you’re building that relationship and giving them opportunities, rather than going in with this proposal of, “Here’s what you can do to make money.” No.
Chris Badgett: Right. Well, what is a good funnel design? This is like marketing funnel design. Let’s say you’re a course creator. How does the podcast fit into it? We talked about that affiliate part, but is there anything else related to designing a marketing funnel where the podcast sits into it?
Nicole Holland: Yes, definitely. I mean everybody is different in what they recommend for how to get those leads in, but when you have your funnel set up and you have an opt in form, right? A free chapter or whatever, a free module or whatever it is that you have already established as your funnel to get people in, I do recommend making a new page for every show you go on. There’s a few reasons for that. Number one, you can track. You can take a look and see, “Okay, so I thought that this would be a good audience for me. Is that true? Are the converting,” you know? “Oh, this is a huge show.” This is something that my clients get very surprised about which is that oftentimes, people will be like, “Oh, I want t be on this show because it’s the biggest show,” but that’s not always the show that’s going to get the most opt-ins, right, whereas you could go on a show where the host just loves you. You’re just hitting home, and those people can’t wait to get more from you.
You get to track and look at that when you have a new page for each show that you do. Another thing is then, you can optimize that page for the audience by saying something like, “Welcome, LMS cast listeners,” you know? “Hey,” in the copy or you can even make a video and say, “During this interview with my pal Chris, we talked about this. I wanted to make sure that you had this tool so that you could take it to the next level,” right? You can actually customize that page based on your actual interview. Another thing you can do is make sure that no matter people … A lot of times, hosts will say, “Okay,” at the end, “How can people connect with you?” Guests will say everything from, “Here’s my website. Here’s my social media. Here’s my freebie. Here’s my book. Here’s my this. Here’s my that. Here’s my phone number.” People, it just … If you have one page, and it’s a custom page with an easy to remember URL, then you can continue to direct them there. No matter what the host asks you, you can tell them that same URL.
Okay, Nicole, great. If my audience wants to connect with you on social media, which social channels do you use? “Oh, awesome. You know, I love Twitter and Facebook. I’m starting to get into Instagram.” Oh, cool, so what are your handles? Where will they find you? “You know what? It’s so hard to remember everything, so I just put everything in one page.” If you go to this page, boom, it’s all there.
Chris Badgett: If I ask you … I will ask you again at the end, “By the way, if people listening want to connect with you, where can they find you?”
Nicole Holland: It’s interviewsthatconvert.com/lifterLMS.
Chris Badgett: Awesome.
Nicole Holland: What I do is you’ll see if you go to that page, all the way at the bottom, there’s, in the footer, my e-mail, my Twitter, my Instagram and so on. I’m always just directing people to that one page. Again, it’s tracking to see is this a right fit? It’s also about making them feel valued, the audience, because it’s specific to them? It’s also about making sure they’re taking the action that I want which is that page. Then, it also, a lot of times, hosts will say, “That’s so cool. Nobody’s ever done that before.” If somebody has, it’s very, very uncommon, so the host feels really valued too, that you would spend that extra time to make the page. Gripes that I’ll hear from people who are trying to leverage podcast guesting but very ineffectively is they’ll be like, “I don’t have the time. You know I’m busy. I don’t have that.” It’s like that’s cool. Then, you don’t deserve the leads, you know?
Chris Badgett: Right, right.
Nicole Holland: Yes, those are some of the ways. At the end of the day though, you want to give value to get them into your funnel and podcast guesting, if you deliver value on the podcast that the audience is listening for, who wouldn’t say yes to getting something that they already want from you?
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. That’s really, really good advice. I really appreciate that. I want to get into a problem that we see in the industry of online course creation and building membership sites, which is that you could say, and I don’t mean this is always the case, but a lot of times, people do things backwards where they buy LMS or membership site or online course software or via hosted solution. Then, they figure out, “What am I going to teach? What’s my content going to be?” Then, they go figure out how to build community and do marketing. It can be a lot easier from what I’ve seen and in my experience, if you build community first, figure out what you’re good at and what you should teach and then make your learning method or your learning content. Then, you go by. You rank and wrap it in some technology. They, the marketing is a lot easier because you already got … You know, your course is ready to roll. You have a community base to start from. Let’s assume that somebody is in their early days.
I’m an expert at some kind of dance. I want to build a community. I’m just making this up, like a tap dancing community. If I want to approach podcasting, I’m an expert at tapping, tapping in my tap shoes. I’m not a technologist. How do I get going with podcasting? I heard Chris on the podcast. I want to do it the right way. I want to start with community before I go shopping for software. What do I do?
Nicole Holland: Definitely, and that’s a great … I love that you’re asking this because it is. It’s most people who do, do it backwards. I did it backwards.
Chris Badgett: I’m guilty too. I’m to passing judgment on anybody listening.
Nicole Holland: Yes. In fact, my membership group consists of a bunch of resources that are old courses that I made that made no money because I might sell it once or twice. Then, I’m like, “Nah.” Then, I’m moving on to something else. What I love right now that’s working for a lot of people as we’re recording is Facebook groups and Facebook live and being able to really deliver value inside of a private group that’s free. This is one of the things that I advise my clients who are in my group too that we deal with more than just podcast guesting but marketing in general. They’ll say, “Well, I want to do exactly as you just said.” I said, “Let’s get that first.” Go find people that actually care to listen to you, that people want to listen to. Get them into a space where they are listening to you, and you’re giving them value and they trust you. Then, yu can even ask them.
“Hey, guys. I’d love to make a course or have a group to go through a program about how to,” I’m the tap dancer, “But how to jump and tap your feet at the same time,” or whatever, right? How to take that next step? How to get started with tap dancing, whatever it is. You ask them, and they will tell you if there is an interest or not. The, you pre-sell it and say, “Okay, cool. If I create this, how many people are ready to buy at this price, this beta price?” Then, you get the money. Then, you can create it. The value there for podcasting before you create something is when you know what you’re an expert at. You know who you are holistically and how you can give value and where you can give value and how you can connect, because really, podcast interviews, for the most part, are conversations.
Yes, there are a lot of shows that are very … I’m talking about most. I’m talking interview shows, right? I’m not talking about the solo shows, but there are a lot of interview shows that are very, very structured. It’s like a Q and A. It’s the same thing every time, but the majority of what I’m hearing and what I’m finding people want in the space is these kinds of conversations like we’re having right now that are more fluid and that aren’t all talking points. When you find those right shows and you’re able to add value, then the people who want more from you will go into this membership, this Facebook group, free space, right? You can use a membership site to do it. Whatever you want to do, but where you’re nurturing them, giving value. Then, they’re paying to actually create the course. Is that what you were asking, or did I …
Chris Badgett: Yes, yes, yes. That’s good. That’s good stuff. I was just at a conference recently in I ran in … Some people came up to me. I did not recognize them. They knew me from my Facebook group and also from the podcast. You get that little like celebrity thing. They’re like, “Oh my God. I’ve been listening to you for a while,” or whatever and like, “Let’s get lunch. I’d love to take you guys to lunch,” and whatever. It’s amazing how powerful that stuff can be. We forget the internet, you know? If you have a hundred, a thousand, 10,000 people in a Facebook group or whatever, that’s a lot of people. Those are real human beings that you’re connecting with.
I wanted to ask you a little bit about … You mentioned the interview versus the solo show. I’ve done it all, like when I started LMS cast, I used to do a lot of shows with one of my business partners. Then, I did it for a while. I did a lot of solo shows. Then, I knew I wanted to eventually start doing a lot of interviews and get bringing in knowledge and wisdom outside of the tent, so to speak. When does one make sense? Should I have maybe have just started with interviews and just gone straight to that? What are some … What makes a great solo show? When should you go solo? What’s your thoughts?
Nicole Holland: Yes. My thoughts are this is a whole other kind of worms. I’d love to come back and chat about podcasting as a medium. I can give you some thoughts on that, but I just want to really clarify that if your course creators want to use podcast guesting, the beauty in that is you don’t have to actually figure that out. “Do I do a solo show? Do I do an interview show? Do I do a mix?” You don’t have to cultivate the audience. You don’t have to invest in the resources and the hosting and do all of that. You get to go into somebody else’s space if it’s an interview show and leverage their audience, which is a lot, lot, lot easier and faster.
Chris Badgett: And super powerful.
Nicole Holland: So powerful.
Chris Badgett: Their e-mail list, their influence, it’s amazing. It’s really amazing.
Nicole Holland: Yes. I want to just stress here that one mistake that a lot of people make. It’s amazing how many people make this mistake, is that they contact, when they’re wanting to use podcast guesting, they do it the wrong way, in my opinion. They will contact just anybody if it’s in their niche. A lot of solo show hosts get pitched, get cold-pitched by people wanting to be on their show.
Chris Badgett: They don’t have guests.
Nicole Holland: Right, so when you decide you want to leverage podcast guesting, make sure you’re only reaching out to people with interview shows, and make sure you’re a right fit before you reach out. I definitely go into detail in all of that in my podcast, Get Guest Ready, in the Get Guest Ready School, which is the free e-course is at interviewsthatconvert.com/lifterLMS. To come back to your question really briefly, it really just depends on what your personal goals are. Your podcasting strategy. There are a million right answers. It’s really hard just to say what, but I can’t say you should or should have done anything differently. It’s perfect as it is. For me personally, I started with an interview show. I was producing three interviews a week on my podcast. It’s called Business Building Rockstar show. My audience was telling me they wanted more of me, so I was doing the interviews plus I was trying, but very, very inconsistent at doing solo shows. Those solo shows were getting more downloads than any of my most famous guests.
With that feedback, with those numbers to look at, again, an important reason for tracking and just getting messages from my community, I decided to go down to one interview a week, one solo show about the very thing a lot of people come to me with questions about, which is technology. I do one interview show with an entrepreneur about their story. I do one solo tech tip. It’s tech tip Tuesday, and it’s like a really quick little … Just, “Hey, here’s something that I’m using that’s working for me.” That’s it. Now, I want to also do an audio blog. Again, it’s inconsistent because I just don’t have the time. When you decide your podcasting strategy, one thing to keep in mind is that fluidity is perfect, right? Great, you started one way. You morphed a little bit. It will probably morph again.
What I see a lot of podcasters do that I think is a mistake, not for all of them, but in general as a mistake is they spend the time, energy and resources to get a podcast up and going. Then, they say, “Oh, well, I don’t want to do this part.” It’s just like courses, right? “I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to do something totally different, so I’m just going to stop doing this one. I’m going to start a new one.” You don’t have to go through recreating the wheel every time. You can morph. It took me a good year or so to figure this out. Now, the membership community that I started under the Business Building Rockstars Initiative, so this general marketing, I kep that community. A couple of people have left because I said, “Hey, here’s my focus now. As the creator and as the leader, my focus is podcast guesting. You can still bring your questions to the table, but this is what my intention is now.” Most of the people are still in there, right?
My podcast again, it was all interview at the beginning. Then, it became a balance. Just be really willing to morph and be fluid and shift. I have a colleague who completely changed her branding, changed the name of her show, changed everything. Even the structure of it, but she didn’t get rid of the podcast she already created. She just modified and allowed that audience to shift with her.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. That’s really good. Well, if I’m a course creator, and I want to do this community building thing, and I want to learn from you and think in advance about designing my funnel, where I’m going to send people after I become a guest on the show in a way that makes sense and have a marketing funnel, the ads value and helps me leverage other people’s audience while building value and building quality relationships. Could you give us three to five or not to or mixed, like the tips if I want to … I’m not ready to start my own podcast. I want to do guest podcasting. What are some high-level tips or things to avoid?
Nicole Holland: Before you start reaching out to anybody, make sure you have your stuff together. That includes your technology, so you make sure you have an appropriate … You can see, Chris and I are both using the ATR-2100. I think that’s what you’re using, right? It’s like, I don’t know, 70 bucks, but there’s things that are … You can get a Logitech ClearChat headset for probably under 30, depending on the day on Amazon. You can see, Chris and I both have earbuds in, even though we’re talking into our mics. That’s so that there’s no echo. It’s to improve the audio quality. You need to have these things. If you’re going to do-
Chris Badgett: That’s basic stuff. It’s not rocket science.
Nicole Holland: That’s basic stuff that most people don’t care about. Most guests or most people start guesting, I should say, don’t think that that is important. They’ll show up with their Apple earbuds. Then, you hear as the mic get, right?
Chris Badgett: Yes.
Nicole Holland: A lot of hosts don’t mind that because they say, “Oh, that’s okay. You can just use that.” The guest believes that they can, and then will try and go on somebody else’s how that says, “Hey, I care about my audio quality.” They say, “But I use this everywhere. This is fine.” Don’t ever do that. If you’re going to go on somebody’s show, it’s their show. It’s like walking into somebody’s house that doesn’t wear shoes in the house and deciding you are going to walk with shoes because that’s how you do. It’s just rude, and you’re not going to be welcomed back. You make sure you have those technical things in place. Make sure that you have thought out everything that the host could potentially need from you. I do give a template away for that in Get Guest Ready School, so I call it a host prep sheet. It’s got everything from my website, my social media links. It’s got my bio. It’s got my … I just blanked out, but it’s, oh, Skype ID. It’s got my phone number.
Chris Badgett: You’re anticipating all these problems, and it’s like, yes, just like the affiliate thing. Just make it easy.
Nicole Holland: Anticipating questions right? Also on there, it’s got potential questions. Personally, as a podcast host, I don’t need anybody else to give me questions. However, there’s a lot of podcasters who do want questions because they just have a different way that they do things. I make sure that I cover as many bases as possible, giving them more than they need, so they don’t have to ask me for anything. Oh, links to pictures. Stuff like that. Having that in order is great, too, and also having a place where I call it a guest profile page where somebody can go to that page, see information about me, links directly to all of my social and everything and just get a feel for my personality, overall, check out some podcast interviews I’ve already done. It makes it really easy to vet me.
When a host says yes to taking a look at me, right, because they’re not just going to ask and say … If they don’t know who you are, they’re not going to say yes to you right away. You ask them if they’re interested in guests, but then, they have to check out and see if they want you. At that point, that’s where I like to send them to one page that’s already pre-done. It shows that I’m a professional. It gives them everything they would need to vet me. It makes it easy for them to say yes and take that next step. Make sure you have all of your resources in place, from technical to promotional, to the support for the host. Another thing that is not a necessity, but I like to recommend, is that some hosts don’t have a proper scheduling system. If they don’t, you’re going to go back and forth with them or their assistant a few times to find a time. Then, you’re going to go back and forth to get the information and all that.
What I like to do I use Acuity Scheduling. I love Acuity Scheduling. I set up a podcaster’s interview with me. In that, I give them appointment times that I’m available. I give them a questionnaire to fill out which is a link to your show. How much time are you going to need? Is this a video or an audio? How are we connecting? Is it Zoom? Is it Skype? Is it Zencastr? Is it Hangouts? All these different options, so I anticipate all the questions I’ll have. I get the information from them upfront and allow them to book a time that’s convenient for me rather than me having to go back and forth with them and then that’s just a waste of time. Most hosts do have a booking system, which I’m happy to follow, but if they don’t, I like to be able to give them this opportunity. Don’t just cold pitch. Make sure you know who you’re contacting. Make sure you listen to the show before you go on. Give them a five-star rating and review because if you don’t think they’re five-star worthy, you shouldn’t be going on their show.
I don’t know. That’s a bunch. Is there anything else? Did I answer your question?
Chris Badgett: That’s was five. That was five. That was good. I love that. I get pitched all the time for guest posting, blogging, and I can tell right away when looking at it like, “They don’t even know. This is just a mass e-mail. They haven’t listened, or they haven’t read the blog or whatever it is.” When it’s personal like, “Hey, I read your post about this. I learned this. This is what I’m doing. I think we share the same thing.” I mean it’s a totally different experience, so it’s not a volume game. That’s a really good insight.
Nicole Holland: I think a lot of people are selfish and lazy. I think that’s something to look at, because the people who are struggling will continue to struggle because their perspective is, “I don’t have time to do all that research. If it’s going to take me way too long, I would rather send out 10 cold messages in the time it would take me to investigate one.” It’s a number game, a volume game. That is not something that is going to get you very far, because especially in podcasting, it’s a tight-knit community. This is another benefit we didn’t talk about earlier, but if a host has a good experience with you, it is very easy then to say, “Hey, you know I had so much fun. I hope you did too. I hope your audience gets value do you know anybody else who might find me to be a value on their show?” We know each other, guys. This is actually how … I mean all I was doing initially was connecting my guests that I thought were good to other podcasters, right?
I built this huge network really, really fast. People know me, and they also know that I will send them good guests. When I ask them to take a look at somebody, that holds a lot of weight. By there’s just so many things you can get out of one interview. Put in the time, and make sure that you care about the host, that you value them and that you want to add value to them. It’s going to pay off exponentially.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Well, to the listener out there, before you go sinking all your money into Facebook ads, your course and double down on that as a marketing strategy, what if you just got Get Guest Ready for one well-placed podcaster who has an audience that would be a perfect fit for your course? You can do that. You don’t have to start a podcast. Nicole, I really want to honor you and thank you for coming on the show. I feel like you shared a volume of information here and wisdom around podcasting and guest podcasting and helping the course creators out there. Thank you for coming on the show. Where can people go again if they want to see what you’re up to and find out more detail about what you got going on?
Nicole Holland: Yes, thank you. Thank you for asking. Before I say it, I just want to honor you and appreciate you for having me here, for asking questions that really matter. This was a great interview, and it isn’t always. I want to honor you for being able to pull that value out of this interview. Thanks to your listeners for being here and also taking action on this. If you got to interviewsthatconvert.com/LMSlifter, right? Is that what we said? No, lifter LMS. Oh my God, Chris.
Chris Badgett: It’s all right. People say it backwards all the time. I think it’s because of the L’s.
Nicole Holland: Lifter LMS, so interviewsthatconvert.com/lifterLMS. Then, you can just opt in for the school right from there. It is free. You can get the podcast for free there. That would be the next logical step. If you are interested in more, I mean I do have higher-level services, so just shoot me a message. Again, interviewsthatconvert.com/lifterLMS. My e-mail is at the bottom of the page. Shoot me a message. Tell me that you’d like to have a conversation. We’ll hop on the phone and figure out how I can support you.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming, Nicole.
Nicole Holland: Thank you.