In this episode of LMScast we discuss how to prepare slides for teaching online courses and other instructional design secrets with Janet Kafadar from JanetKafadar.com. Chris Badgett of LifterLMS and Janet talk about marketing funnels, the different stages people go through when building a course, and how to remove the roadblocks that are standing in the way of course creation.
Janet is a course creation expert who works with specialists in various fields to turn their knowledge into an online course. She has been working on this business for around four years now and she has learned a lot about what it takes to make courses successful. She shares the strategies her company uses to turn an expert’s knowledge into an online course, and you can use the startegies to improve your course building processes.
Many experts in various fields will struggle with building courses, because they throw together content, but lack the instructional design element of course creation. Janet’s company has the experts write out the content they are teaching onto index cards with one point per card, and this will translate into roughly one point per slide in a presentation. She then has her team listen to that content and turn it into an engaging slide that helps get the learner to an outcome. Then the expert can re-record their presentation, and it will have a stronger instructional design within their course. Janet’s company also works with the experts on how they lay out their course and what should be said in their course.
When building an online course it can be very easy to get sidelined, distracted, and slowed down. Many course creators fail to launch their courses, because there are so many pieces that need to come together to make it happen.
You want to be cognizant of where, when, and how your students will be learning your course material. Are they going to be at their child’s swimming lesson listening on their phone, or are they going to be in front of their computer with a notepad and pen? Janet highlights this key element of focusing on the student experience as it applies to course creation, because being mindful helps to make your content stronger.
Chris and Janet talk about how beneficial it can be for you when creating courses to do a deep dive on your course structure and outline before diving into the content. This makes it so that you don’t have to do as much editing work on the back end of your course, and you can focus on the content moving forward.
Focusing on the outcome is something that Janet and many course creators believe is key, because the customer most often purchases the course to attain a desired outcome. When building courses you want to always think about how you are taking the student from where they are now to where they want to be.
To learn more about Janet Kafadar visit JanetKafadar.com/quiz to take her course journey quiz that will help you determine the next steps you should take with your course creation to make it a success.
You can subscribe to our newsletter for updates, developments, and future episodes of LMScast. Thank you for joining us.
Episode Transcript
Chris Badgett: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. My name is Chris Badgett, and I’m joined by a special guest, Janet Kafadar from JanetKafadar.com. She is a course creation expert, and we’re really excited to have you on the show. Thank you for coming, Janet.
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Chris Badgett: Janet shares a unique knowledge set that I love to geek out about, so we’re gonna have a lot of fun on this show. We’re gonna get into instructional design, marketing funnels, the different stages people are at when they’re trying to build their courses. And a lot of what we’re going to get into is how to remove roadblocks that are standing in the way of course creation, ’cause it’s really easy to get sidelined, distracted or slowed down, or failure to launch, because there’s all these different things that need to come together to make it happen.
One of the things I’d like to get into with Janet, it has to do with her approach to instructional design. I heard her on the Productize Podcast with Brian Casel, and I was really interested to follow up with her, because she was talking about one of the things she does with her Done For You services, work with experts on getting their course launched and set up. And she talked about a process of really getting into the slides.
So this there’s whole problem that happens where if you’re an expert and you want to have an online business, you need to go through this huge gap, which is called instructional design. Not to mention the selling, and the membership, and mocking down the content and getting the money and all that, but you actually gotta take that expertise in turning it into an online course.
How do you do that, Janet? Talk to us about slides.
Janet Kafadar: Oh my goodness. Yes, no, I totally hear you with what you’re saying there, and that’s the set of a really big problem that my clients have. So what I’ve found over the years, I’ve been doing this for about four years now, coming up to four years in this business. I had a previous business before. But in this business, what I’ve found with my clients is at the very beginning of trying to get them … it was just me at the time working with my clients to try and tease the content out of them and get it down on paper, and get it down on slides, and then in a way that I can translate that. And so they’re students, and learners can get the most out of it.
But it just didn’t work. Now when I did this in my corporate setting it was fine. You could quite easily go ahead and talk with the subject matter expert, and you can sit down and have a clear discussion about that. But because most of my clients are overseas, I’m over here in Australia. Most of them are either US or Canada or UK. Having that fluid discussion didn’t happen so easily.
So a way in which I found to work for me and my team, and for my clients as well, is for them to just get out a blank slide, a blank slide deck with nothing on it, it doesn’t have to be fancy, nothing at all. And just write one point per slide. Now I say it like that because that’s literally how it needs to be. One point on this slide, one point on another slide. Yes, you may end up with about 200 slides in the end, but it works, because then I get my clients to then record themselves talking through each of those points. And so the things that they may not necessarily say to me come out when they’re talking through it on the slide. So things that they may want to get across, or an area that they wanted to elaborate on, they can do that quite freely. Then it’s easy for my team to then go away or listen to what they’re saying and then translate that into an engaging slide that helps the learner get to an outcome.
So that’s the way we found it to work the best, and yeah, my clients, students and learners seem to get the best results from that. So if anyone’s kinda struggling and that’s their big roadblock and they don’t necessarily have a team or anyone to help them, that is my best advice to you. One point per slide, and just record yourself doing that and then you’ll realize that there are bits that you may not say that come out that actually really do help you and you can use them either on a side deck or you can use them in worksheets or anything like that.
So yeah, I hope that’s answered your question. I think I went a really long way around your question.
Chris Badgett: No, that’s really good. So what happens if somebody doesn’t do that, or what is the default mode of operation for an expert if they’re not going one point per slide, what’s the alternative?
Janet Kafadar: Well the reason that I like this method the best is because it works if you know your content and you know your subject matter inside out. Now if you don’t and you’re kind of not sure about it, this is not going to work, this method. And if that’s the case, you really shouldn’t be creating a course because you should only be creating it if you are an expert at what you’re doing.
So if someone is kind of struggling with this, then don’t … and if that even kind of freaks you out a little bit, then don’t worry about it. Just go ahead, just get out a slide deck and either type it out or use images. I’m a big fan of images and the ink. I’m a visual learner, so I have to have images. Text just doesn’t work for my brain, so having images or even symbols, or you know those little icons that you get where it’s just like a person sitting at a laptop or something, or just little outline images? Use those instead. Use diagrams to help illustrate your point or whatever it is that you need to get across. So that’s another way in which you can go about if putting one point per slide is not ideal for you.
Chris Badgett: That’s fantastic. Well let’s talk a little bit about your Done For You service. What would your team then do with that slide presentation?
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, so it’s then their job to go through, so let’s imagine the course is four or five modules. And then there may be three, four lessons per slide. Sorry, per module, then it’s their job to go through and then translate what the client has said in that recording and in that plain deck that they’ve sent across to us, and then translate that into their branded slides or whatever it is.
Chris Badgett: So are they re-recording the presentation, or is this the editing function, or they were just-
Janet Kafadar: Yeah-
Chris Badgett: … research or how does it work?
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, so they’re collecting all the information from that they’ve done. They’re then creating a brand new slide deck and interpreting what the client has said, either using images or diagrams, or whatever it is and putting those all into a slide deck. Handing it back to the client and then they can go and re-record it, ready for us to then upload into their members area.
But prior to that, a lot of work on the actual structure, the outline, what’s going to be said inside of each lesson and each module has already been determined beforehand. So we never really get to appoint where a lesson is anything more than 20 minutes long. We always try and cap it at the 20 minute mark, because people lose interest and no one wants to watch a video for 30 minutes. So it’s really important that we see everything from the learner’s perspective [inaudible 00:08:23] really conscious about how they’re going to be engaging with this information. Where are they going to be? Are they going to be on their phone whilst their son or daughter is at swimming? Are they going to be in front of their computer? Being mindful of that really helps us make sure that the content is stronger.
So yeah, so then that’s what my team then go away and do and work on the slides for the client, and then hand it back to them for recording. So yeah, it’s quite a lengthy process, but especially for my clients who are time-poor, they just don’t have the time to sit and try and put all the pieces together and work out what needs to go on the slides and all of that. That’s our job to take that information, their expert knowledge and turn that into a course for them.
Chris Badgett: That sounds like a really professional approach. It also sounds like a very professional expert who sees the value in getting some help. ‘Cause if I’m an expert and I’m going to do the work of making 200 slides where I’m going over these key points of my expertise, for me, it makes a lot of sense that I want an instructional designer who really knows their craft to help take that further.
So I love what you’re doing, and you’re also making it an iterative process where it then comes back to the expert, am I right? Where then they are gonna come in with some voice or …
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. So it’s all their voice and all their recording. So they go through the slide that we send them, and most of the time there are only like a couple of things that they want to change and they can change that when they get it back. That’s fine, it doesn’t have to come back to us to do, but it works quite smoothly because they know when the slides are coming to them, and then I tell them and my team tell them beforehand, “Okay, you’re going to have to block out at least an hour or an hour and a half on your calendar on Thursday because we’ll need you to sit down and do your recordings so it can come back to us.” And then they just put it in a Dropbox folder when it’s done.
And there isn’t really much editing to that, once it’s done they just-
Chris Badgett: Because you did the hard work in the slide creation process.
Janet Kafadar: That’s right. And even at the very beginning where we’re working on the slides and all of that stuff. So working on the lessons and what’s going to be said, and how it all links together. All of that stuff, there’s not very much for us to do, maybe just put some intros and outros if we need to. If the client has that.
So to anyone that’s got a listing, my best advice, do your planning and really deep-diving into the content structure and how it’s gonna hang together and what’s going to be in it, and then start recording ’cause that frees you up a whole heap of time when it comes to the editing side of things if there’s any editing and kind of getting things uploaded, ’cause that in itself [inaudible 00:11:33] a whole heap of extra time. So do as much of that work upfront, and then it will save you in the long run.
Chris Badgett: That’s beautiful. That’s almost counterintuitive, I see a lot of people how just put a Himalayan effort into creating content, and then someday later they figure out the editing process. But why not make it a little more structured on the front end so that the editing on the back end is a lot more minimal?
Janet Kafadar: Yes, yeah, absolutely. Like it may just be a few ums and ahs or something like that, but I normally just tell my clients “Okay, just pause it, and then get yourself together again and start again.” Like don’t even worry about it. Don’t think “Oh, I’ve got to start from the beginning … ” “No, don’t worry. Just press pause, just keep going.” Because as soon as you think “Oh god, I’ve gotta do it again,” then you know what happens. You kinda get in your head and you start fumbling and it just makes it really difficult. So I’m like “You’ve only got an hour and a half on your calendar, remember. So don’t even worry about it.”
Chris Badgett: The heavy lifting of the core structure and curriculum is already there, so I mean that’s really the biggest worry.
Janet Kafadar: Yes, yeah. Exactly, right. And they feel relieved, they’re like “Oh, okay. I’ve got this and it’s fine … ” It always comes back “Oh, I’m really sorry. Around the 10 minute mark I really mumbled … ” I’m like, “Don’t worry about it, it’s fine. We’ll just cut it out, it’s all good.”
Chris Badgett: I have to ask you, I need to understand a little bit of the story behind all this. This is a really unique skill set, and you mentioned in your … I believe in the corporate clients in the past or something, how did you develop this skill?
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, so god, really interesting question. So in my corporate days I worked for a management consultancy and we did a lot of learning and development, and creating workshops and training programs for government departments here in Australia. So I am an Australian assistant but I was born in the UK, so I’ve been here for about eight years now.
So when I first moved out here, this was the main job that I had and very different from what I was doing in London. I was working in advertising and marketing and stuff. When I moved out here, I wanted to do something totally different, so I launched myself into working with this management consultancy, worked as a project manager there and then kind of worked my way up as kind of a consultant, and working on creating and developing course content.
So once I did that and … I really got to see how programs, ’cause these weren’t courses so much then, they were a more three day workshops, or three day masterminds so to speak. And it was really interesting at a high level, at a government level, having to help these leaders within government, help them get to an outcome at maybe over the span of 12 months or over the quarter or something like that. So the content that we had to create had to be really robust to lead them to an outcome.
And so that kind of curriculum, e-learning, development kind of came about then. Then I had my son and my other two kids, so I’ve got three kids, and then I just realized, especially when I had my eldest son, “I can’t do this. I can’t work for anyone and I don’t want to.” I think it’s more the fact that I just didn’t want to work for anyone else. I just wanted to do my own thing. And I’d already kind of had that [inaudible 00:15:15] in the back of my mind but I had no idea what that was.
And so once I had my son, my eldest, sorry, I kind of figured out like “What am I going to do with myself? How’s it going to look?” I didn’t even imagine that it would like how it is today. It wasn’t even on my radar, and so when I first started I kind of did a bit of VA work for people to kind of figure out what it was I wanted to do, and so that didn’t work at all, having a newborn baby at that stage. My son and I had to go to sleep school, we have sleep school here in Australia, which helps new moms kind of figure out what to do with their babies. So I suppose three days trying to learn how to put my son to sleep and myself to sleep, because we were just really struggling.
And shortly after that I was searching on the computer, I think I came across … I thin it’s like Brendon Burchard’s, like the YouTube video or something, you know how it is. You click on something and end up randomly somewhere. And I watched his video all about living your purpose and doing your own thing, and then I clicked on something and then I ended up on a sales page for a course. Now, I bought the course and it wasn’t Brendon Burchard’s, by the way. And I bought it, I went in there and I thought “Holy smokes, what is this?” I just couldn’t believe it. I thought, “And I’ve just paid $1,000 for this. What is this course?” It was really messy, totally all over the place. Yeah, the content was okay, but just the structure was not there. Just the delivery of the course … the content itself and the slides, I just thought “Wow. Is this for real?”
And that’s really where it began. I thought “God, there must be someone teaching people how to do this. Surely.” This is four or five years ago now, so the landscape’s a little bit different now. I couldn’t really see anyone. Yeah, there were a few people here and there, but not that many. I thought “Well, it looks like people …” and then I realized that in the expert industry there are people that need help with this to create products to leverage their time, et cetera. That’s where it really began and I just kind of one step at a time, just put one foot in the other and just started helping people out with creating courses. Because what I was doing already in my corporate days was already really transferrable to what I wanted to do, and I just nerded out on tools and plugins, and all of that stuff. I enjoy that, so it wasn’t a big deal for me to kind of figure it out, and I kind of had a knack for making sure that my clients were using the right ones and the right fit for their business and their goals.
So yeah, that’s a pretty short version of how my business came about.
Chris Badgett: That’s super cool. I love that story, and you’re right. There’s this whole expert industry and there’s a lot of focus on the e-commerce, or the selling, or the launching. But not so much on instructional design. And even on community building, like list building or growing a following on Facebook and stuff, there’s a lot of information and stuff out there. But the active actually teaching through the internet, there’s a gap.
I heard you in that gap, and I was like, I gotta go talk to Janet and get her here ’cause people need to hear about this part, ’cause it’s important. And I’m also a big believer in … there’s a lot of “Escape the 9 to 5” type stuff. I have kids at home, we do the homeschooling thing. We’re home, I spend a lot of time with my kids, I love the lifestyle. But I also know there’s a lot of wisdom and knowledge that we can pull out of the corporate world of management consulting like you mentioned, and there’s a lot of ideas and information and research and investment that have gone into figuring things out on a corporate level that can come down to small business and startup. And we don’t [crosstalk 00:19:44] reinvent the wheel down here. We just need to understand and know some best practices.
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, absolutely and I think that’s a really great thing that you brought up. So I remember my early days, like I had a lot of people reaching out to me like “Oh, can you help me start my business?” And I was like, “I have no idea, I’m just starting mine.” Like I am not the right person to be speaking to. But I want find quite interesting was that a lot of these people … and that could’ve just been their preference, were really just discounting what they knew how to do really well in their corporate jobs. So what I was doing already, I just transferred over into my own business, really. So I wasn’t really moving too far away from that.
To anyone listening, if you are in that place like “Oh I don’t know what to do,” or “I’m not sure which direction to go in,” yeah, you can go and follow your passion. Do what you really want to, but don’t discount what you know how to do. If you’re really good with processes and systems, or project managing, like seriously, just move forward with that for now until you kind of figure out what it is that you want to do kinda further along down the track. I think you’re so right, but there’s so much investment of time and energy has been put into us as people in our corporate careers, and so just kinda use it and leverage it to your advantage.
But then also going to what you said just a minute ago about people really focusing in on the marketing and community managing and all of that stuff, I always say to my clients and the type of clients that I work with, I say to them, don’t worry about the sales and marketing stuff. If you focus on your message, the positioning of your cause, and you’re already an expert in what you’re doing and you’re already doing it every day it will sell. Because you’re already doing it and you’re already serving people who need what you have, you’re just repackaging it and presenting it in a different way.
So the sales and marketing stuff will come. It won’t happen overnight. Don’t believe anyone who says you’re going to blow the roof off in 30 days, they are lying. It’s just gonna take some time to figure out … if it doesn’t happen … you will get some sales but it may not happen as some may say. And it’s just an iterative process. You’ve just gotta keep working at it, updating it, changing it, tweaking things here and there to be able to get it to a point that you think “All right, I think this is … ” it’s never going to be done, just like a website, but it’ll get to a point where I can feel satisfied with it and I’m getting the desired results that my students require from it.
So yes, doing the work upfront on the course structure is hands down the most important thing to do.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s beautiful. I’d encourage anybody listening to this to press pause and go back to listen what Janet just said there, ’cause it’s not just about the marketing. And if you’re already getting paid every day to do a job, or you’re in a job looking outside, looking at this whole online education industry and your employer’s giving you money to do stuff, it’s a very valuable skill.
And tailing off of what you said there at the end, having it be an iterative process, even what you do in your services are iterative. And I love that, that it’s not just like, okay, there’s this starting line, and then the money comes in and then the product comes out and you’re good to go. There’s a little bit of back and forth with the customer in terms of getting the course curriculum dialed. It’s almost like a Done With You [inaudible 00:23:50] service, I would call it. It is done for you, but there’s a component where the customer puts something in, you put something better out, then they [crosstalk 00:23:57] and then they do more with it that then creates the ultimate awesome product.
Janet Kafadar: Yeah.
Chris Badgett: And then the whole iterate approach to collaboration, and consulting, and productized service I think is really powerful.
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it really works. It’s taken probably good year up until now, so last year this point is where things kind of really took off and started to feel more like “Okay, right, we’ve got this. We’ve got this process kind of down and it’s working for us,” whereas before it wasn’t pretty much, I’m not gonna lie. It was a hot mess.
Chris Badgett: [crosstalk 00:24:38] I recommend that. I’m doing a book club right now about this book about instructional design called Design for how People Learn, and there’s skill development. Skill has to happen. You have to work on it.
Janet Kafadar: Absolutely, I 100% believe that. So yeah, so it was really messy, it was very stressful, and I’ve not long had my third child about a year ago, so it was really quite difficult and I was feeling quite burnt out and thinking “Oh god, I just want to close the whole thing down and go to holiday.” I was just over it. And then a friend of mine said “Why don’t you just hire someone else?” And it didn’t even occur to me. Like “Oh yeah, maybe it shouldn’t just be me and my assistant. Maybe I should bring on someone else.”
And then at that point is when I brought on a project manager, they deal with the client. So they only kind of come to me when they have something they’re not sure about, but they kind of do the client delivery of the work and kind of manage that communication between them. So that really has kind of freed me up now to just have some breathing space. I can’t believe I’ve waited so long to do that. I hit my every day, like “God, why didn’t I do that before?”
Chris Badgett: Well I have to ask you about this, and I guess it’s probably a skill that also came from the corporate time, but in order to successfully bring in project management, it’s helpful to be skilled at developing processes.
Janet Kafadar: Yeah.
Chris Badgett: For them to manage. Otherwise it just being like, “Here you go,” you’re just trying to stick a body on a problem.
Janet Kafadar: Oh gosh, yeah.
Chris Badgett: I think you’ve done more than that based on what I’m hearing, how did you get so good at process development?
Janet Kafadar: You know what? I think I just really love it. And I didn’t realize that I really thrive on a process and knowing how something works. I’m one of those people like if I think back to my corporate days, I wanted to know how it all … what I needed to do and the steps I needed to take. Leave me to go and do it, and I’ll come back if I have questions. I don’t want to keep bothering someone, and I think that’s something that stuck with me. And when I remember going early on in my working career, I would find myself working somewhere and I was doing a little bit of temping work, and I got into an office and I said, “Oh what’s the process?” And the lady looked at me strangely, like “What process?” And I equally looked at her as strangely thinking “What do you mean you don’t have a process?” It just didn’t compute. And it’s not how my brain works, and it’s not that I like processes so that I know where I’m a real stickler or anything like that.
There’s definitely room to move around that, but I like having everything laid out so that someone can just go and do it, and obviously come back when we have … especially when you’re training up new people, but come back to me if they have any questions and we can work through it together. To be able to do this, sometimes we have five, six clients’ projects going on at a time, obviously at different stages, there needs to be a process there for us to be able to communicate as a team, for us to be able to communicate with a client if an issues arises, to identify which stage people are at. It all has to kind of come together, and it didn’t all happen at once, it just kinda happened bit by bit quite organically. That’s where my nerdy brain goes to and I love it.
Chris Badgett: Well I have to geek out with you on another part of your nerdy brain. [crosstalk 00:28:41] said earlier in this conversation from your corporate background, which had to do with the outcomes?
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, yeah.
Chris Badgett: So in online education or information products, or membership content, premium content, there’s this whole knowledge thing. Like premium content, there’s great ideas, curated well, great information. That’s a given these days. But results and outcomes, in many ways is almost more important than the actual content itself. Based on your experience from corporate or just in your own way of developing in your skills and your offer here, how do you help experts help people not just get great information, but get to outcomes?
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, so that’s a really good question, and focusing on the outcome is the only thing that matters. When I say “Outcome,” I’m not talking results. Because when people sometimes think of a result, they’re thinking of a result that’s monetary. That’s how I differentiate the two. I’m not really into that kind of [inaudible 00:30:03] marketing where it’s like “Oh, get X amount in 30 days,” or something like that. It just doesn’t happen, it’s rubbish, chuck it out the window. Chuck the course out the window.
But outcomes focused courses really focus in on taking the person from where they are right now, the struggle and the problem that they are having to the solution and what they actually want. And what they want, yes, might be monetary, but at the core of it, it normally isn’t. “I actually just want to feel better,” or “I want to have a pathway to be more fit, just guide me to that. Guide me on those steps in that journey to get to that outcome.” And that’s the only thing that matters for us as a team, focusing in on the outcome and taking them from where they are right now to that point. So at least it can be broken down in stages. It doesn’t necessarily have to be like you’re gonna promise that person the world. Don’t do that if you’re not going to do that, if you can’t.
So yeah, focusing on the outcome is the only thing that kinda matters, and is the most important. Because with an outcome you can’t write any form of marketing, or sales message or something like that. But don’t make it hypey and based on money, because that’s not always the most important thing, and you’re actually leading people down a path to disappointment. And the fact that they actually won’t complete it as well, if you hang everything about your course or mastermind, or program or whatever based on money. That’s what I found, anyway.
Chris Badgett: That’s beautiful. Janet Kafadar, ladies and gentlemen. That’s JanetKafadar.com, check her out. She’s got a quiz on her website, can you tell us about the quiz?
Janet Kafadar: Yes, yeah. It’s JanetKafadar.com/quiz, and it’s a course journey quiz. So if you’re kinda stuck with whereabouts you are and what you need to do and the next steps you need to take to be able to create your course, then just go ahead and take the quiz. It will ask you just, I think it’s five or six questions, and then you’ll be given two action steps to help move you forward along with a couple of videos as well.
So this has kind of come after four years of working, and basically what I’ve seen from talking to hundreds of people, and I’ve put that all into a quiz to help give you the right steps and what you need to do.
Chris Badgett: That’s beautiful. For those of you listening, you have to wear many hats as a course creator. You have to be an expert, you have to be an entrepreneur. You have to be a teacher, an instructional designer. A technologist and a community builder. Those qualities are very rarely found in one person. If you need help with the teaching and instructional design and strategy, it’s Janet. As soon as I heard her on some other shows, I knew I had to get her on here and help share some of her wisdom with you all.
So Janet, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.
Janet Kafadar: Oh, thank you so much.
Chris Badgett: Yeah. Is there anywhere else people can connect with you?
Janet Kafadar: Yeah, so you can also connect with me on my YouTube channel, Course Creators TV, and I do video tutorials and platform reviews, and I’ll also do one for Lifter as well. I do reviews of platforms and all of that kind of stuff, so yeah, you can find me on Course Creators TV, or even if you just type in Janet Kafadar to any social media platform you’ll find me there as well.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Well thank you so much, Janet, I really appreciate it.
Janet Kafadar: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it.
