Episode 390

Coping with Grief and Loss with Sherry Walling Author of Touching Two Worlds

In the podcast interview, Sherry Walling from Zen Founder podcast shares her personal experiences with grief and how it has affected her as a business owner. After losing both her father to cancer and her brother. Sherry found herself immersed in a world of sickness, mental illness.

Sherry Walling is a clinical psychologist. She’s the author of Touching Two Worlds her new book. Sherry Walling also has a great book called The Entrepreneurs guide to keeping your shit together. And sherry is the host of the Zen founder podcast.

This prompted her to start writing about her experiences with grief, leading to the publication of a book on the topic. Sherry also discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic has caused a significant increase in the number of people experiencing grief.

This grief can stem from the loss of plans, security, or even health and safety. Sherry refers to this as the “strange world of grief,” as it can feel like an alternative reality that exists alongside our everyday lives.

Sherry believes that it is important to talk about grief and to recognize its impact on entrepreneurs and business owners. By acknowledging and addressing grief, we can better support ourselves and each other as we navigate difficult times. By doing so, we can work to create a more understanding and supportive business community.

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Episode Transcript

Chris Badgett
You’ve come to the right place if you’re looking to create, launch and scale, a high value online training program, I’m your guide Chris Badgett. I’m the co founder of lifter LMS, the most powerful learning management system for WordPress. stay to the end, I’ve got something special for you. Enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMS cast, I’m joined by a special repeat guest. Her name is Sherry Walling, she’s a clinical psychologist. She’s the author of touching to Worlds her new book, she also has a great book called The Entrepreneurs guide to keeping your shit together, which is amazing. And she’s the host of the Zen founder podcast. Welcome back on the show, Sherry.

Sherry Walling
Good to be with you, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Chris Badgett
I’m really excited to kind of go into taboo land today with the education entrepreneurs, as I call them out there, who are pretty busy people, they pour a lot into their courses, or maybe they’re running an agency building sites. And sometimes I get so busy, they kind of fly over grief or it becomes inevitable. everybody deals with it. And it’s kind of one of those things that people don’t talk about a lot. So I’m really excited to get into it with you today. Can you give us the setup? How did you ended up focusing on this topic?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, I, I wrote this book, I started writing this book, a few weeks after my dad was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. So he had the kind of stage four sort of nightmare cancer where your life changes in a day. And he lived 18 months from his initial diagnosis to his eventual death. And right alongside my Dad’s experience, his illness. My brother, who was, you know, in his very early 30s, really took a deep dive into his own experience with alcohol addiction and depression. And we ended up losing him to suicide six months to the day after we lost my dad. So I went from being a person with a pretty sort of intact family, to someone who was really spent several years just immersed in sickness and mental illness and hospitals, it’s in all this stuff. And then eventually, you know, these two deaths.

So I was really aware of how it was shaping me as a business owner as a, you know, a writer, a podcaster, somebody who does a lot in public was suddenly confronted with this big personal story that I felt like I needed to, to wade into. And so writing has always helped me, I started writing really for myself, but wrote so much. And, you know, to be honest, I wrote so thoughtfully, and was able to bring in my clinical experience that, you know, this book is sort of my my gift to others, is there, inevitably, at some point in similar kinds of situations.

Chris Badgett
In addition to losing a loved one, you wrote an article about the great resignation and grief, can you tell us just a little bit of the setup around that?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, so I think we, we think about grief, I certainly initially thought about grief as like the emotional response to death. And of course, it’s much bigger than that. It’s the emotional response to any kind of loss. And, you know, as an entrepreneur, who, you know, is hiring a team or interacting with other people, a lot of us have experienced these big shifts in work life that have correlated with COVID.

Right, of course, everybody had to work remotely, whether they wanted to or not, some people like to, some people didn’t, but it kind of created this, like existential crisis for many, many people around how they wanted to spend their time and how they wanted work to fit into their life. And so the grief of COVID, right, the loss of plans, the loss of security, the loss of all of our rhythms, and for many people, the loss of health or safety or actual life, really shifted a lot of our assumptions about how work happens. And so, you know, lots of people are not returning to work. We saw the greatest number of resignations last year, and I think that that response is really grief driven, more than anything else.

Chris Badgett
You call it I read somewhere the strange world of grief. What is what makes it strange.

Sherry Walling
I think for me, I felt like I’ve been catapulted to this other world like Stranger Things. Fans may be familiar with the upside down, right? There’s this world that we all operate in. That’s like a You know, interacting with kids building my business do in my deal like living the life that appears on my Google Calendar.

But then there’s this other world, my book is called touching two worlds because of this other world of like, life and death and strain and deep pain, like just, it feels like an alternative reality, that, for me, as a young mother, with young children, someone building a business like I was living in these two realities at one time. And so when I’m sitting in the hospital with people who are actively dying, I was just like, like, how did I get here? Like, it doesn’t feel like a place I should be. But it is a really important and really common place for humans to find themselves.

Chris Badgett
You mentioned relearning how to grieve to kids and babies, or just young people do a better job? And if that’s the case, has, have we gone awry with culture in some way? Or? Or how, like our, the modern world has, like taken a misstep in terms of the grieving process.

Sherry Walling
I feel like one of the gifts of children is that they feel their emotions, all in MeV interact with a toddler, they are 100% committed to whatever they’re feeling. They don’t have a story around, should I be feeling this? Am I feeling this for too long? Is this the right expression for my feeling, you know, they don’t have that sort of metacognitive mess that we grownups find ourselves in. And I think specifically around grief, we do have these weird cultural expectations around how people show up when they’re grieving, especially professionals, like people will go to their mother’s funeral on a Saturday and then be back in their office by Wednesday. And that’s not that unusual, people don’t get bereavement leave, there’s not a lot of flexibility.
There’s sort of this expectation, in western review us based culture that will sort of stoically shed a tear, and then get back to business. We don’t have, we don’t have like, a framework for how to cry, like scream to whale, and that’s, you know, as toddlers to say no. But we don’t have these big bodied, full emotional expressions of big emotions that I think we in some ways need a more comprehensive capacity to emote.

Chris Badgett
You mentioned, you know, going back to work if for ourselves, or if we employ people, what do you think is the healthy thing to offer to let’s say, as an employer, when somebody loses a loved one, what should we say? Like, what should we how much time take as much time as you need as kind of what I’ve always said, but is, how do we help our team when they’re involved in that?

Sherry Walling
I think flexibility is really helpful, like acknowledging that some days, it may feel really good to come to work, and just dive in to a solvable problem and put your head down and get shit done. And other days, it may feel absolutely impossible to do that. So I think, at least like this sort of six week period of flexibility of saying, hey, here are the projects that I really need you to get done work in your time.

You know, if it’s a Saturday, where you have the energy to do it, great, do it if there are other days where you don’t have it, like, okay, just be in dialogue with me. So I feel like flexibility is the most honoring thing. Because you know, as grief also can carry some like, big fuel, like big creativity, big drive, to be really alive to get things done to focus. I mean, it’s not just, I want to go in my dark room and cry all day. There’s some real gifts in grief in terms of our creativity and productivity. And so that’s where I feel like giving people the freedom and encouraging them to do the self evaluation of what do I have to offer today is the most compassionate course.

Chris Badgett
When does it start? Is it does it start in anticipation? So for example, if somebody’s ill, or you know, you have a limited amount of time, like when does it begin?

Sherry Walling
I think that there’s that is a long grief, right? There’s some grief that begins with the sickness, because right away, there’s a loss of health, right. My dad lost his eyelashes, as you know, as a side effect of chemotherapy, and that was like, this big, right? Oh my god, the eyelashes. So there’s all of these little griefs that you’re grieving along the way.

So knowing that someone is going to die, I think changes the timeline. grief for a lot of people, it doesn’t make the grief less, it just maybe distributes it differently. And and then when I lost my brother, we had some inkling that he could die, right. He was ill he was struggling, it was not unlike cancer and the kind of ups and downs of and then this happened and then that happened and and then he’s in the hospital for this, you know it is its own tumultuous illness. But because I wasn’t present with him when he died, like we didn’t really have it date, so to speak. That grief felt very different because it was, it was more traumatic, it was more shocking.

Chris Badgett
Or their flavors or different types of, for example, a pet or a family member, or let’s say a business ends or it stops growing, or the world is no longer feel safe. Like is it all the same thing? Or? Or is it are these kind of different?

Sherry Walling
I mean, I think grief is the emotional response to loss. And there are lots of emotions that go in the bucket of grief. Right? It can be rage, it can be a new joy, or a new connection to what’s important. So grief isn’t kind of one thing, it’s sort of like a bucket of feelings that are our reaction or response when we lose something. And so I kind of think of the mix differently. It’s a little cocktail, they get mixed differently for different kinds of losses for different people.

Chris Badgett
That makes sense. You mentioned it reshaped you. So how are you different now? When with this big kind of grief session? And how long ago was that six month period from this this time?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, my dad died in November of 2018. And my brother died in May of 2019. So that’s both long and short at the same time, like I don’t know, is that long ago or not long ago. There are several things that are that are pretty different about me. One is a real deepening of my own commitment to my own body, if that makes sense. Like feeling really, yeah, my health but also the enjoyment of my health. So I have this sort of side life as an aerialist as a circus artists, or it’s anybody who follows me on social media as well.

But um, that’s become really, really important to me in a way that it was like just sort of like an exercise thing that I did before grief. But now it feels like this embodied part of me is a deep part of who I am, and what I need in order to march forward in the world in the best way. So that sort of deep sense of gratitude for a healthy body and commitment to keeping it healthy, that that’s it’s different. That’s a shift for me.

I think I’m a lot more tolerant of living in the back and forth between those two worlds, like, I generally would consider myself a pretty positive sort of personality based positive person. And now I’m not uncomfortable with deep sadness, like, I go there all the time. And I live there, and I’m okay there. And that feels like a deepening of my emotional capacity. That didn’t exist before grief in the same way.

Chris Badgett
In broad brushstrokes. Do you see any trends? Where men and women just in general deal with grief differently? Do you notice anything there? Or is it not really I think

Sherry Walling
a lot of our social expectations get applied in any type of high stress situation. So I think men are really pulled into problem solving and fix it mode. And maybe women are more pulled into like the emotional caretaking. So there’s some kind of like social pressures. I don’t know how many of those are like, endemic or come from truly who we are or if that’s these are just roles that we play.

I think the the vulnerability of grief can feel less comfortable for men. I see a lot of men masking grief with alcohol with other substances where they’re sort of turning down the intensity. Or, again, kind of going into distract and avoid mode. I think women generally speaking again, this is sort of stereotypical, but women generally have a little bit more permission to be overly emotional. I wish that men had a little more space for that. Frankly, I think it’d be healthier for them.

Chris Badgett
You’ve done a lot of work with entrepreneurs, specifically that the entrepreneurs tend to have some issues with grief that are kind of ways they deal with it patterns you see,

Sherry Walling
I think entrepreneurs are like in the moment go kind of folks. And so I think they’re also really driven for the well being and care of their companies, right? They’re committed. And what can happen, I think easily with entrepreneurs is they just sort of skim over the top of grief. And it gets kind of pushed down. And it can be dormant later and cause problems later. So I think like all really, on the go, highly ambitious, folks.

Grief is a lot of work. It takes a lot of time. And it’s very complicated. And most entrepreneurs, I don’t think see the value in going through that process as much as they see the value in like, skipping over and getting back to work. In the short term, that might work just fine. In the long term, I think that does create some problems. I’ve worked with a lot of entrepreneurs who are having an event happen that triggers this grief reaction for the dad that they lost 10 years earlier, and they never really waded into all that they felt about that event.

Chris Badgett
What about cross culturally? I know, I know, some people that have gone to like Native American, like grief wailing ceremony things, is there any cultural examples, you know, of around the world where a certain group of people may have a healthier relationship with grief? And what does that look like?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, I mean, there are several examples that come to mind. But even in even among my Jewish friends, the practice of sitting Shiva and the fact that it’s there’s a week long, at least seven day period where the family sort of just sits in Wait, and people come and visit. But it’s, it’s a very community oriented expression. And it’s much longer than the like, to our memorial service that, you know, my my Catholic brothers and sisters have. So I think that in itself is it is a really helpful and beautiful practice. And there’s a lot of like community practice around how to support a grieving family in that tradition. And then, another example that comes to I spent my junior year of college living in West Africa.

And when you go to a funeral in Ghana, there’s clothes like special clothing that you wear. It also is like a week long process. There’s parties, there’s all kinds of different events, and they all have sort of a different emotional tenor. So there is like a wailing ceremony, there’s a time where people cry, and they yell, and they express with their bodies. And then that same night, there’s like dancing around a fire. So there’s, there’s this full range of grief, and then celebration of life, and wailing and sadness, and then deep community. But even I was so impacted by the idea of dressing together, because it identifies we are all in mourning. We are all impacted by this. And we as a community of family share this visual external identity that says, Don’t mess with me, I’m in grief.

Chris Badgett
Alright, let’s say you have a like, somebody has a magic red phone to you. And they’ve just, they’ve just lost a loved one, let’s say a parent. What do you advise? What would you advise that person? They’re like, I don’t want to I don’t know what to do. I’m broken. Like, can you help? What would you what would you advise them?

Sherry Walling
I would advise them to go slow, to cancel as many things as they can possibly cancel. And to really listen to what their longing is like, is your longing to go lay on a beach for a couple of weeks go and do that is your longing to take a driving tour of all your childhood homes so you can remember all of these moments with your parent. Go and do that is you’re longing to call up your aunts and uncles and interview them about who your parent was when they were a child go and do that.

But but like really listen to those internal longings, those internal voices that are like buried so deep, they’re kind of hard for us to hear in our modern lives. So I would advise lots of space time to do what you’re longing to do. And then that deep listening, I would also advise people to really talk with others, like, build sort of a grief community of support. Let your friends know. Talk to your friends about what’s happening, even if they haven’t lost family members. I also think it’s really helpful to find a couple of people who have had a similar kind of grief experience. ends because there’s a lot of like, is this normal that this happened to you? That kind of grief community is really, really helpful.

Chris Badgett
You mentioned being touched by suicide. Is that an example of like, other people touched by that? For finding support?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, I think that’s, there are some intricacies with that kind of loss, that our culture in particular isn’t sure how to digest. There’s a lot of like, shame, or you people, other people remember that dead person with more complexity. So when my dad died of cancer, people would say things like, it always happens to the good ones, or, you know, just these like trade little things that people say, when somebody dies. What was suicide? People don’t say this.

You know, under their breath, they might be thinking, like, How selfish How could he leave his grieving mother and leave his sister and leave his you know, like, there’s a lot of like, judgment around suicide, because people believe, people believe that there’s choice involved, and it gets really mucky and existential with what we believe about how much freedom we have. And then what it means that someone would take action to end their life and what that means for everybody else. So all that say, because suicide is pretty complicated. I think talking with other people who’ve lost somebody to suicide is really helpful, because I, I think that’s a safe place. To remember the person that you lost without any without the same, like shame, complexity conversation.

Chris Badgett
How do you support somebody who’s grieving or like, what do you say, as an example, like you mentioned, people will often say this or that, like, if you can help people, like, what should they say when they’re like, Hey, I lost my father, my mother, my sister, my brother.

Sherry Walling
My favorite thing that people said, my friend Jamie said this a lot, which I really enjoyed. But she just said, you want to tell me a story about him?

Chris Badgett
So honor, the honor the life kind of thing.

Sherry Walling
I think sometimes people feel like, oh, I don’t want to say anything. Like they seem they seem happy right now, I don’t want to remind them that this person died. And then like upset them. And bottom line, like they have not forgotten is they’re at the playground with their kid. And they’re smiling and laughing like they have not forgotten that their dad died like they know. So I think it feels really good to have the option to have a conversation about either the grief that someone is experiencing, or the person that they lost, because that’s the tragedy of death is that like, you’re never going to have dinner with my brother, like, you’ll never get to meet it, like the story is ended in terms of his interaction with others in the world.

So when someone is invited to tell a story, tell me about your dad, tell me about your mom who passed away. Like that keeps them alive and present. And also, you’re sharing them with another person in a way that I think for most people who are grieving feels really, really beautiful and important. The caveat is, it’s always a really lovely to have the choice. Because grief happens as a result of choice being taken away. Something happened that I didn’t want to happen. And that’s why it hurts. And so helping people feel like they have choices, would you like to if you ever want to I’m available that that kind of language is so helpful, because it it gives people a sense of choice and autonomy at a time when they’re just reeling from the lack of choices that they’ve had

Chris Badgett
this grief ever end like is it a process that completes? If it’s handled, let’s say in a more healthy way, or does it never really end?

Sherry Walling
I don’t think it ends because I think it’s the shadow side of love. So it ebbs and flows, it changes. It doesn’t always feel with the same intensity of like rage and desperation that it might feel at the beginning. But I think it does sort of settle into you as a different kind of loving someone. So I will always miss my brother and there won’t, you know, he was supposed to grow up with me.

He’s my peer. He’s the one who was supposed to be around when my mom got sick or when my kids graduated from high school like he was supposed to be there like that’s the timeline of things. So every timeline every big event in my life when my brother is not there like I wouldn’t He said his absence will be felt. It’s not the same as the moment that I fell on the ground and like laying in the dirt for two hours after I found out that he died. That’s a different acuity of grief. But no, I don’t think grief ends, I think it just sort of changes shape.

Chris Badgett
What’s your advice? You mentioned falling on the ground? I think I saw on your site, something about crying on airplanes. What about grief and kind of having heavy emotions in public? It’s hard for people but what how should? How can you reframe that? Or what should people do if it happens in public?

Sherry Walling
I wish we could have like a cultural shift around this because we laugh in public, we, you know, why can’t we cry a little bit like it’s just the other end of the spectrum. Um, yeah, I was on airplanes a lot. While this was happening, my dad lived in California, I live in Minnesota, my brother was in Montana for a while.

So I was just like, basically flying all around. Also, I was also promoting a book and giving talks and still working during much of this season. So I was on airplanes all the time. And I had like a whole situation where I had this like hoodie that I always wore in planes, I always got the window seat, so that I could like sort of curl into the wall and have like a little bit more privacy. And for whatever reason, anytime I sat on an airplane, it was almost the sense of being still enough to not be able to super like, distract myself.

So I would cry on like, for like, two years. And I just kind of got used to it. And honestly, people weren’t very bothered like most, as long as it wasn’t like sob. It was just this sort of dignified, like, oh, this person is clearly going through something. The, the, you know, the airline staff, the stewards and stewardesses would often like give me extra bag of Cheetos, like there were just a little little expressions of compassion.

But it was, it was okay. It was okay, to be a little bit more emotional. I wish we did still wear, you know, like a black armband. As in past times, there’s some external signifier of grief so people know how to interpret your behavior, I think that probably would have been really helpful to these people on the airplanes to know what was going on with me. But in the absence of that, I think it is surprisingly, more okay than we might think, to have some emotional expression.

Chris Badgett
You mentioned grief is the shadow side of love, which I love that kind of concept. If somebody loses a partner, how do they know when they’re ready to like, date or love again, or get married again? Or something like that? Like, how do they? How do they know it’s okay, or maybe not feel guilty or something like that? Like, how do people navigate that?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, it’s a tricky one. And again, people have lots of opinions about it, right? I think, generally speaking, some time, and space is required to move out of that really acute stage of grief. Because in that really acute stage of grief, the emotion is so big, that it’s really difficult to make big decisions. You know, how people say, like, don’t make decisions when you’re tired or hungry or angry.

It’s sort of like that, but it’s like that for a while, like months. Um, some space is helpful. But also, I think, when you’re longing turns toward being in a romantic relationship, again, like that’s also something to listen to. I think grief is a really, really good time to have a therapist, because it’s so much bigger motion, it can be really difficult to sort through what’s what. So somebody who’s been bereaved and lost their partner and is thinking about, you know, partnering again, it’s a nice time to have like a thoughtful objective third party at least ask the questions around what might be at play in this longing?

Chris Badgett
What are some unhealthy behaviors that people just to be aware of that like, when you’re grieving, you may be inclined to drink a lot or go right back to work and just kind of power through it? What are the things to just throw some caution against?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, anything that functions as avoidance is can be problematic here and that’s that’s where the drinking can be problematic. It’s numbing, right? I don’t want to feel so alcohol becomes an option. I mean, all of the all of the distraction techniques like online shopping spending money pornography, having a fares like all of the things that lead us into another overwhelming state, and allow us to avoid our feelings. So there are healthy ways to have a break from the power of grief.

I think for me, that’s what the what my circus world has become like when I’m on the Flying Trapeze, I’m completely focused, for safety reasons on what I’m doing. And I’m not in my grief moment. But I can do that for a couple hours a couple of times a week and sort of have this full body break from grief. So some break from it, I think is totally helpful. But if we’re numbing regularly, or we’re regularly sort of seeking out these other kinds of experiences, or feelings that that discount the grief or put it away, and that’s where we run into some danger of not, not fully feeling it, not walking toward it.

Chris Badgett
If we zoom out, and we look at like the great arc of the human experience, or our generations and of our lineage, or whatever, and we kind of get to it, have had a healthy process with grief. How can we harness the creativity that comes out of that, like you mentioned for you writing was really helpful, but and also created something of value that’s going to ripple out into the world, tell us more about that creative energy that can come out of it

Sherry Walling
has actually an old Freudian idea, okay, for I’d argue that these two internal drives that are most powerful within us that we’re sort of always contending with. And I’m not a Freudian, by the way, but I think this his thinking about this is really interesting. He talked about the drive that we call libido, which has come to be thought of as sex drive, but it’s like a distortion of what Freud intended. It’s the drive towards generativity, or generation making things creation.

So sex can be like a component of that. But it’s this big force within us that’s says, like, I want to be alive. And I want to leave an imprint, I want to make something. And that sort of counterbalance against in Freudian thinking, Thanatos, which is the drive towards destruction, I want to burn, I want to mess it, you know, like, I was sort of terrorized, and I am ultimately heading towards my own doom. So we’re always kind of, again, Freudian idea, like contending with these forces. And I think grief, rips those forces open. So lots of people in grief, who’ve never had suicidal ideation experienced suicidal ideation, lots of people make pretty destructive decisions, right after grief, lots of people.

I mean, after my dad died, my brother, within 24 hours of his death, was in county jail, like, just lost his mind, you know, obviously, like in this very grief, distorted, destructive state. So the other side of that, though, is this creative drive, it’s the drive that says, I want to matter and I want my I want to be alive, like, I want to feel my life. I don’t know if that makes sense at all. But it’s really this powerful feeling.

And I think it can drive people towards all of this unlocking creativity, because they’ve already had this terrible thing happened, there’s no need to be afraid of it anymore. you’ve encountered death. It’s not a mystery, you know that it hurts terrible. But also, you really want to stay alive. And so I think people can feel a lot of clarity about what is important to them. And if again, if you have the time and space to listen to what’s happening inside of you, that creative drive, I think, can be pretty amazing. Like, like great poetry, great art, all kinds of music is written in reaction to grief and loss. And even even, frankly, the getting done of business. You know, there’s a focus thing that can happen when people give it the time and space.

Chris Badgett
Incredible, touching two worlds.com. What can people expect inside of the book?

Sherry Walling
Yeah, the book was, to be quite honest, originally written sort of as my journal. There’s a lot of stories in it. But in partnership with my publisher, they really invited me to think like a psychologist. So most of the book is a compilation of essays and essays involved, like a story about what I experienced, and then my reflections on what I learned and how to make that helpful to other people. So it’s not just about me, it’s a lot of breathing practices, yoga practices, journal recommendations.

You know, there’s a whole chapter about how to talk to grieving people. So really thinking about how to live out grief in a better way in our society. The book is sad. There’s a lot of sad parts, and there’s some really funny parts. There’s a lot of like, bizarreness about death that with the consent of my family, I felt quite free to talk about and make fun of a little bit. So I think we’ll hopefully leave people with a sense of nuance and depth. It’s also pretty hopeful and very loving. So I’m really proud of it. It’s, it’s, there’s a lot of meat in the book. And it’s quite a vulnerable book to put out there into the world. But I’m very hopeful that it will serve people well.

Chris Badgett
Well, good on you for doing it. That’s it touching two worlds.com It’s also on Amazon and wherever books are sold anywhere else. The good people of the internet can connect with you. Sure.

Sherry Walling
Yeah. So I’m on Instagram at Sherry walling and Twitter at at Sherry walling and Sherry. walling.com. So funny, I almost didn’t get a book deal because my Instagram following is not very impressive. Apparently you need like 20,000 Instagram followers. So now I’m telling people please follow me on Instagram just in case I want to write quite a quite a weird gauntlet to walk through. Have somebody look at all of your internet numbers.

Chris Badgett
That’s awesome. Well, Sherry, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having this conversation. And I’m really glad we could get into this topic that doesn’t get discussed enough.

Sherry Walling
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for your thoughtful questions, Chris.

Chris Badgett
And that’s a wrap for this episode of LMS cast. Did you enjoy that episode? Tell your friends and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And I’ve got a gift for you over at lifter lms.com For slash gift go to lifter lms.com forward slash gift. Keep learning. Keep taking action, and I’ll see you in the next episode.

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