We discuss teaching technology, the art of metaphor, and the online educator’s journey with Joe Casabona in this episode of LMScast with Chris Badgett of LifterLMS. Joe shares his experiences with online education and teaching at the University of Scranton.
Joe is a very passionate teacher. He has a lot of education and teaching projects that involve teaching online. Joe is also a professionally trained computer scientist and web developer. His podcast, How I Built It, is where he gets into entrepreneurs’ interviews and examines how people built up software businesses. Joe started freelancing when he was fifteen-years-old, and he did it throughout high school and college. He majored in computer science and got his master’s degree in software engineering.
Using your strengths to your advantage is important when creating captivating content. Joe has always liked being around people, as a natural extrovert, so teaching in front of large groups gives him energy and allows him to perform and make his training sessions entertaining. Coming up with analogies in order to help someone understand a point is one of Joe’s strengths, and that helps to communicate his points to others.
Chris and Joe discuss some of the aspects of an online course and what makes it successful. Defining a clear starting point and a clear finishing point is critical for your course. It allows your customers to be able to assess for themselves weather or not your course is right for them by being specific on what the prerequisites are for your course.
Joe has a course about how to use Beaver Builder to create a website. His course gives an interesting and engaging take on website building. Joe creates a website as he goes through the course, and he uses the different modules of Beaver Builder on each page. He does not go through all of the features, but he goes through the ones that are applicable to the tutorial website itself.
A course becomes a lot less engaging when the material in the course is taught as bulk information. When you attach meaning to what you are teaching it is a lot easier to remember. That is one of the things that makes Joe’s teaching strategy entertaining and engaging.
To learn more about Joe Casabona, you can reach out to him out on Twitter at @jCasabona, and you can find him on most other social networks as well. You can find his personal website at Casabona.org. You can also check out his website at WPinOneMonth.com.
You can post comments and subscribe to our newsletter for updates, developments, and future episodes of LMScast. Thank you for joining us.
Episode Transcript
Chris Badgett: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. My name is Chris Badgett, and today we’ve got a special guest, Joe Casabona. How you doing, Joe?
Joe Casabona: I’m doing great, how are you?
Chris Badgett: Good. Joe is one of those super passionate teachers. He has a bunch of education and teaching projects that involve teaching online in some component and also his skills as a professionally trained computer scientist and web developer. Those projects are called “WP in One Month”. He has a “How I Built It” podcast, where he gets into entrepreneur interviews and gets into how people built up software businesses. He does some teaching for the University of Scranton online in Health and Pneumatics. So, Joe, thank you for coming on the show.
Joe Casabona: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m very excited to chat with you about teaching and course development and stuff.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Awesome. For the people who haven’t heard of you yet, can you give us a little bit of your story? Like, where you came from, you know, who are you, and what makes your clock tick? Like, what are you up to?
Joe Casabona: Yeah, definitely. I am Joe Casabona. I am about 31 years old. I’ve got a wife and a six, seven week old daughter. Aside from that, I’m a web developer and a teacher. I kind of fell into both. I knew I was really into computers when I was a kid and then my parents asked me if I could build them a website. They were like, “Joe, you know, we know you’re good with computers, can you build us a website.” Then I said, “I don’t really know how to do that.” And they said, “We’ll pay you.” And I said, “Yeah, I’ll do that. You’ll pay me? Absolutely.” Like, sure.
I absolutely loved it. So I started freelancing when I was 15, I did it all through out high school and college. I majored in Computer Science and have my masters in Software Engineering which was really fun to do. I love planning software. In grad school, I got a teaching assisting-ship. I would essentially do like a 10 minutes lecture and then have the students work on some project as a supplement to another course that they had to take in the computer science department. I really enjoyed that. I realized that I like teaching as much as I like programming. While I have been kind of in the higher up space and the agency world, I’m a front end developer, a crowd favorite. I wanted to continue that passion for teaching. I taught in person classes at the University of Scranton for a while, and then when I moved away from Scranton, that’s when I decided to start WP in One Month, as a way for me to continue developing courses and teaching people. I think that’s everything- oh, and then “How I Built It” was kind of like an off shoot of WP in One Month. I was asking a lot of people how they were building their online courses and their websites and I said, “Hey, these are conversations that are probably great for public consumptions. So, I started the podcast I guess about eight months ago, nine months ago.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. Where does that come from in you, because some people, they’re really good at something, whether that’s web development or whatever kind of skill or craft, but they have to work hard to figure out that teaching piece, or how to be a good teacher. It sounds like that was just kind of natural and enjoyable for you out of the gate. Where do you think that comes from?
Joe Casabona: Yeah, I was thinking about that with my wife because I realized that it did come naturally and I was like, this is not something that comes naturally to a lot of people. I think probably, I’m an extrovert. At Word Camp US, I walk in, there’s like thousands of people and I was immediately energized, I was really excited to be there. I did drama club a lot, so I knew I liked being in front of people and entertaining. I try to make my classes entertaining. I hope they are. I’ve always had a thirst for knowledge and I like explaining the things that I’ve learned to other people. It’s something that definitely comes natural to me and I really enjoy doing it and I’m also really good at coming up with analogies, which is something that really helps me with teaching. I think it’s a combination of things. I enjoy the being in front of people factor, I love learning myself, and so I take what I learn and I like distributing that knowledge to other people.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. That’s really cool. Let’s talk a little bit about your course in the WP in One Month and there’s this lesson we go through as course creators, where maybe we don’t want to make something too general or we’re teaching the people as if they know too much, like we’ve forgot what it’s like to be a beginner. Basically, that’s just a journey of discovering your target market and figuring out, okay, I’m a web developer, I can teach people, but where in the journey are they? Or, how did you define the target market and who you wanted to teach to.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, that’s something that’s super tough, whether you’re teaching online courses or in person. I remember explaining to my Intro to Computer students the difference between a post and page in WordPress and they looked at me like I was insane. It was something that I’d been working with since 2004, or whenever [inaudible 00:05:49] 2006. It was very inherent to me, and they were like, they’re both pages on website, and I was like, okay, I’ve got to reel it in a little bit and explain.
When I define my target market- well, Shawn Hesketh is a good friend of mine, and he’s been a bit of a mentor, and he runs WP101. There’s no way that I can compete with his audience and the quality of work that he does, and I wouldn’t want to anyways, because he’s a friend. So, I was like, alright, 101 I’m going to leave to Shawn.
Chris Badgett: The beginner market.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, exactly. My good friend Brian Richards runs WP Sessions and that’s a bit more of an advanced market, right? There’s like programming classes out that wazoo, I feel. So, I was like, that’s not really the market I want either. So, if WP101 is 101, that’s beginner. WP Sessions is like your graduate level courses, like demystifying databases and things like that, like WPCLI. THat’s like the 501 courses- I want to be in the middle. So I decided I’m going to go with 301.
I read a great article about how the website Implementer is dying. People are graduating from Implementer to programmer and so there are these 10,000 dollar websites, but there are small businesses who cannot pay that. I thought, hey, I’ll target the Implementer. There’s an obvious selling point there, to say, “Hey, if you take my course for 50 bucks, you will immediately get that money back the first time somebody hires you to make a website for 500 bucks.” It’s also a market that I felt was untapped and it’s something I really enjoy doing. There’s a lot of cool tools out there, I like using them. I said, “All right. 301, Site Implementer, and Intro to Programming.” So, I’m going to take somebody from their beginner journey, I’m going to teach them some new skills, and I’m going to start them on their path to the 501, the WP Sessions. That’s a long story on how I came up with my target audience, but I think there’s a lot of good context there.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s really good. I think defining a clear starting point and also a clear finishing point is just critical. For me, listening to what you’re saying, I’m actually a WordPress Power user, but I’m not a developer. At [inaudible 00:08:22] LMS I have a business partner, CTO, he’s hardcore developer, but I’ve always been curious. I’m more of the marketing and the business side, but it’s been on my list to really get a better understanding of programming. With all the words you’re using and the way you’re describing it, I’m like, “Man, I need to take Joe’s course so that I can kind of stick my foot in the water,” and the more I understand that it’ll just help inform my thinking there. I really appreciate what you’re saying there and I think what you’re talking about also just reveals that it’s not just beginners and advanced, there’s this whole spectrum and no matter what the topic is, just pick your slice or your segment. You’re not necessarily at one end or the other.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. Knowing how to use WordPress is one thing, and then knowing how to set up a podcast website is something totally different, because there are endless tools and themes and things and content that you have that you don’t know just from learning WordPress. Teaching somebody how to use WordPress is excellent and again, I can’t say enough great things about WP 101. At the beginning of each of my courses, I say, “If you don’t know how to use WordPress, go over here and learn how to use WordPress first, because I’m not going to cover that. I’m going to show you the tools that I have found from my 15 years experience, the ones that I think are the best or the ones that I use personally and we’re going to build a site together.”
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. So, I know you have a course on Beaver Builder, right?
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Chris Badgett: So, what does a course like that entail? What is the learning objective and how do you pitch that course?
Joe Casabona: Yeah, so Beaver Builder, [inaudible 00:10:17] with Beaver Builder is my most popular course because there’s a very obvious community of people I can market to which is great. I’m part of the Beaver Builder group. I thought, I use Beaver Builder a lot, a lot of people are using Beaver Builder but, I reached out to Robby and Justin, the guys at Beaver Builder, and I said, “Hey, I want to do a webinar on how to use Beaver Builder. Would you guys want to sponsor that?” And they said, “Yeah, absolutely. Our knowledge base is still growing.” So, I did an hour long webinar, it was really popular and I decided to parlay that into a course.
For all of my courses, because we’re building something, I like to come up with a concept. I want a concrete thing, I’m not just going to walk through the features of Beaver Builder because that gets kind of tedious and kind of boring and you can read that. What I did was, I came up with a concept called Millennium Flights. It’s a travel service to take you to different planets. We built a website for that. So, I came up with five pages of content, I looked at the modules that Beaver Builder has and I said, “Okay, what content would be good for this module?” So I can kind of show and demonstrate.
The big value add for that course was I also showed students how to use the [inaudible 00:11:48] of theme. A lot of people are using the plug in, there’s lots of tutorials out there but the Beaver Builder theme was a whole other thing. I said, here’s how you use the Beaver Builder to design a good site, here’s how color theory works a little bit, here’s how you combine fonts. So, the concept is, you have a blank slate. We have a business, and we want to build a website with Beaver Builder. Each module, I introduce it, this is how Beaver Builder works, here’s how the theme works, and then we’re going to build each page as a lesson.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. I’m a huge Beaver Builder fan, the Lifter LMS homepage, our demo site where we demo the software, we use Beaver Builder, and it’s what we recommend when people are looking for a page building tool. If anybody listening is working with Lifter, or just building websites in general, I highly recommend you check out Joe’s course on Beaver Builder.
I really want to dig into one of the things that you mentioned there, which was, you didn’t do a course that was a feature tour. What you did, is you created the interplanetary travel business website. The reason I want to dig into that is because we have a tendency as course creators to often try to put too much into a course. We teach about this in some of our other podcast episodes, but we talk about three different types of courses. There’s the Resource Course, there’s the Learner Process Course, and then there’s the Behavior Change Course. Then there’s kind of a fourth one that’s like a hybrid of some or all of those.
A lot of people- what I don’t recommend doing is building a resource course, especially your first time around where you’re just building this library of knowledge. It can be harder to sell, it’s way more prone to getting bloated and getting too much and people not finishing it. Resource courses are good for the right target market and the right student at the right point who needs general knowledge about something.
What I heard when you were telling your story there, is you took what could have been just a feature tour, like, here’s the Resource Course 101 Beaver Builder, here’s what all these modules and things do. Instead, you contextualized it and put a story around it and be like, all right, let’s build an actual website. So, now we’re talking about a process which is a lot easier for people to learn by, and also you kind of have a- it’s just more fun and it’s easier to communicate on. I just want to commend you for making that call. And it’s extra work as a teacher, I mean, you can just shoot from the hip and roll out a Resource Course, or you can plan out your curriculum and be like, all right, I’ve got to get some examples, I’ve got to get some exercises and really think it through. Tell us more about that.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, well thank you very much. It is a lot more work and I gave a work camp talk last year on developing a course for WordPress, where I define my process and I come up with the [inaudible 00:15:02]. That gets reworked. It’s not a waterfall, if we’re going to talk about software development. It’s not a waterfall process where I’ve done one and now I’m onto two. It’s more of an agile, or it’s like a circular process. Where I’ve done one, I start to do two and I’m like all right, well, the about page doesn’t really lend itself to this, so let’s go back and revisit the content.
I tell people, learn by doing. That’s how I learned web development, it was pretty effective for me. It also makes things concrete, right? Like, I can explain to you how to throw a fast ball. You take the baseball and you make sure that your fingers are on the seams and you throw and you release your- or I can throw a baseball and then give it to you to throw and adjust. That’s the approach I want to take with my courses, because like you said, it sticks a lot more. I’m not just saying, “This is the post module. You can make three different kinds of layouts with the post module.” I say, “Here’s our recent news, here’s what we want it to look like, here’s how we do it with the post module.” People are actually seeing a website come together.
They generally, if people are taking my courses, they probably have a specific task in mind anyway, so my course is helping them figure out that specific task.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, I love that. I like what you said, people are seeing a website coming together. What it is, the simple way to say that, is to show, don’t tell. Don’t just talk about the features, let’s dig in and throw the ball or build the site. That’s awesome.
In our pre-chat, you also in your portfolio of teaching ability, besides public speaking, online courses, you also do this online course for the University of Scranton. My understanding of that, you help create the curriculum, but you also have some live components, office hours and things. Can you tell us- some people would call that blended learning, like blending the live with the online, or the passive asynchronous content. But, tell us what goes down in your live interactions. What is that like, and what kind of tools do you use for that?
Joe Casabona: Yeah, so the official name escapes me, it’s like an intro to Health and Pneumatics. Basically we combine Health Administration with Computer Science so what we’re doing is we’re giving people primarily in the Health fields in this course, an introduction to Python Programming. I’m very familiar with an introduction to Python Programming because I learned Python basically for this course. I knew that you could read a text book and learn so much but programming, especially if you’ve never seen it before, you have to set up your environment, and you have to make sure that everything is running correctly and things like that. So, we built in- I developed this with another professor at the University- Professor Jackowitz. We built in two live check ins. We use Skype, I think the University uses Engage for their online learning platform and they have a thing called Big Blue Button or something for video chat but everybody has Skype, just about, so I use that.
I tell my students that it’s going to be a face to face thing because I want to see them, I want them to see me so it’s not just another kind of virtualized thing. I ask them, basically, “How’s it going, do you have any questions, what issues have you run into? I noticed with your first few assignments you did this, can you talk me through that? Did you have any stumbling blocks here?” It adds a human component, right? You can read a tutorial or you can take a largely text based course and then you can maybe leave a comment or a question in the Q&A form or something like that, but I want my students to know that there is somebody on the other side of the computer who’s actually keeping tabs on them.
Again, it’s a little bit more work. Like, I could just answer their questions via email and not have to set up a time for all of the students, but it’s a passion I have. I want to make sure I’m doing my due diligence cause they’re paying all this money to take the course, I want to make sure that they’re getting the most out of it. I want them to know that programming is hard, I know, I’ve been there, and I constantly remind myself of that. You’re not going to get it on the first try, and that’s okay. That’s why I’m here for you.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. There’s two things in there I just really want to highlight, which was the feedback loop. If you’re teaching online and you don’t have a feedback loop, I think your words were, “Were you struggling?” Or, you talk about obstacles and things like that. If there’s no mechanism for that, you’re really limiting the upside. It’s more of an owners manual or a video version of a textbook and that’s it. But, once you introduce that feedback loop, people are different. People struggle in different ways. When you hear things over and over again, the same problem, then you as the teacher may be like, oh, well I need to improve this lesson over here because my people aren’t getting it. Or maybe somebody just needs personalized support and you have to have an avenue for that. It’s also, yeah that’s more work, but you can charge more for that if you’re doing it on your own without a University, or if you are connected with some kind of school, when you have the ability for customized support, that just increases the value of the program. That’s awesome.
Joe Casabona: How great would it be if like on Christmas Eve, you’re building something for your kid and you could just video chat with the person who put it together, and be like, “Hey, I can’t find the piece that I need. It’s four in the morning, my kids are going to be up in an hour.”
Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s a really neat- there you go! See, that was one of Joe’s talents right there which is analogy. I don’t know if that was exactly analogy but you took something and you put it into context into a story that makes total sense. I’m going to remember that now and forever on Christmas when I’m fiddling around with something like, where’s the red phone? There’s not one. So, that’s awesome.
The other thing is, if we’re really committed to doing great work in education, we’ve all been in those classes where the teacher’s teaching the same curriculum in the exact same way they did for the past 30 years. The feedback loop is also an opportunity to improve as a teacher and to adapt with the times. Especially with technology, things are changing all the time, tools are changing, resources are changing. It’s an opportunity to become a better teacher when you have a feedback loop, and just the very active teaching in and of itself, even if you’re not a natural teacher, is just another step on that journey to mastery. When teaching forces you to think about things, challenge assumptions, build a process, build a methodology, find an analogy and a way to communicate and explain it, that’s really cool.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. It’s cliché to say, but you learn from your students as much as they learn from you because you learn one way when you’re teaching it to a room full of college kids or somebody in their forties who’s getting into work for us for the first time. They’re going to consume information different, and having that feedback loop is really going to improve your methods, give you better courses and add value, which then translates into more money for you, probably.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you and dig into the personal side a little bit. I’m a father, I have two kids at home. I have side projects, I’ve got the main the business, I’ve done client work, but now I’m really focused predominantly on Lifter LMS the product. Being a digital entrepreneur and being an online educator, it can be a bit overwhelming. The internet never sleeps, there’s boundary issues, the phone follows you around everywhere. What are some of your struggles with that and how have you overcome it or found some tools that really help you along the way? If you’ve got a family and you’re doing this thing, you’ll fall apart if you don’t put things in place to hold it together. How has that been for you?
Joe Casabona: Yeah, it’s pretty crazy. A few basic things, I got married last June and my daughter was born in March, so before I had time to figure out married life being a digital entrepreneur, I had to figure out married life with a pregnant wife and now a daughter. So, I’m still getting the hang of that. I am very lucky that my day job at [inaudible 00:24:39] allows me to work from home, and they gave me one month family leave, which was excellent because I had a lot of great time with my daughter, and I got to really settle in and think on, my life is totally different now than it was ten months ago. I’m married and I have a kid. What do I want to do? I kind of knew this already, which is why I started WP in One Month and my podcast. Client work is very time consuming. Somebody is paying you to get something done in a [inaudible 00:25:16] amount of time, and every hour you bill is an hour where you have to be in front of the computer. I think probably, people can glean from the things that we’ve been talking about, but there’s no such thing as passive income, but there’s definitely income that you can make without being directly in front of the computer all the time. That was the [inaudible 00:25:39] behind starting my two side projects.
As far as balance goes, I really am still trying to figure it out. I got these noise canceling headphones because every time my baby cries, I want to comfort her, even though my wife is still home. That’s still a learning process for me, my wife knows nine to five, I’m at work. I’ll wake up early … Here’s the process I’ve been doing, I guess. I’ll wake up for her early morning feeding, so she’ll wake up around five thirty or six. I will get up with my daughter, I’ll feed her, I’ll put her back in her basinet around seven and from seven to nine, I’ll work on the personal stuff. I’ll take a break here and there to see her, and then in the afternoon, where generally I would keep working on stuff, I will spend time with the family. If she’s sleeping and my wife is sleeping, that’s when I’ll take some time in the afternoon to work on other stuff. But yeah, it’s tough. Balancing a full time job and the side projects and a family is tough, so there are a lot of things I’ve been thinking about and what I really want for the future, but that’s for me and my mastermind group to sort out.
Chris Badgett: Right on. You mentioned the Mastermind group, so support network, not doing it alone. Support on all levels. Like, Masterminds for business mostly, it can be as your personal to. You have family nearby to help support. It’s all about support. Scheduling, boundaries. I’m the same way with you, I get up early. For me, I usually have a morning routine that starts at five A.M., but some of my early stuff is the most experimental me time, the world is not awake, I’m just kind of in my own world. I have certain blocks of time, and yeah, it might take me longer than it did when I didn’t have kids and wasn’t married but I still get it done, and I’m happier to have all those other things, too.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. It’s about time boxing and setting priorities. I have my [inaudible 00:28:11] techno daily planner. I’ll hold it up for you. It’s just a little planner, it’s a daily thing. I map out my days. I’ve got my bullet journal, where I have my priorities for the month and for the week. It takes 20 minutes of planning at the beginning of the week and maybe ten minutes each day to say, “What am I working on today?” Get those things done, is basically what I try to do.
Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. I’m very similar. I have a similar journaling process, and it’s super helpful.
Well, let’s shift gears a little bit to what would you advise somebody who, maybe they don’t have the extroverted personality like you, but they really want to teach and it doesn’t feel natural, what should they try- like where do you get the most joy out of teaching, in surprising places?
Joe Casabona: Huh, that’s a great question. Watching people get it is really exciting to me. Actually, you know what, watching people get it is a lot of fun, but that’s an obvious answers. When people don’t get it, I kind of like that, because it’s a new problem for me to solve. I think in the pre-recording, or maybe I said it during the show, when I first explained posting pages to an Intro to Computer course group of students, they’re college freshmen, they all have to take this course, and I said, “All right, we’re going to set up a WordPress.com website.” So, I’m walking them through the admin and I say, “Posts are blah and pages are blah.” And that immediate feedback, they didn’t have to say anything. They just kind of looked at me like, their faces screaming, “What are you saying?” I had to dial it back, and I had to think, “Oh, man. How would I explain this to somebody who has never made a website before?” Resolving a problem that I’ve had solved for a long time was really fun.
I had a great teacher in college, Dr. Maclusky, probably an introverted guy, definitely a computer science guy, but when we solved a problem on the board, like say we were writing a program to determine if a string is a palindrome, which is something that reads the same forwards and backwards. Race car is a palindrome. We would talk through it and he would look at the board as if it was the first time he was solving this problem. And he would talk through it like he’s never thought about it before. That’s a pretty common computer science 101 problem to solve. That meant so much to me, that he wasn’t just like, well, what do you do next? He was like, “Oh, yeah. Maybe we should remove spaces first. Oh, yeah. That’s a good point, we should definitely make everything lowercase before we check, right?” Because uppercase and lowercase letters are considered different by computers. Just watching him solve the problem again with out input is something that really stuck with me. That’s a lot of fun. Taking a problem you had solved for maybe years and resolving it in a different context is awesome.
Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s really beautiful, just working with beginners and avoiding that curse of knowledge and just taking a step back and realizing how much that you had relegated to your subconscious mind, your processes, that ability to move all that away, go back to first principals. If you’re going to teach somebody to build a house and you’re looking at a piece of forest or raw land, or the blank chalkboard and really get inside the mind of the beginner or your student. That’s such good advice. And that can be really fun. What a gift to give someone, to give them the ability to see things in a new way and have new ways to solve problems.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, there’s this great XK CD comic that I reference- you’ve probably seen it- that I reference in my talks, and it’s the difference between saying, “Oh my God, you’ve never seen Star Wars?” and, “Oh my God! You have never seen Star Wars!” Like, I get to show you Star Wars. The idea in the comic is that there’s people out there who don’t know what you know and you get to show people what you know now. That’s another thing that’s stuck with me. I shouldn’t get mad at people who’ve never seen Star Wars. I get to watch Star Wars with them now and they are experiencing it for the first time. I love Star Wars.
Chris Badgett: And there you go, with another analogy. Joe Casabona, ladies and gentlemen. I want to thank you and honor you for coming on the show and sharing your course building and your education entrepreneur journey with us. If people want to find out more and go check out your Beaver Builder Course or any of your other stuff you’ve got going on, where can they find you on the web?
Joe Casabona: I am Jcasabona on Twitter and most other social networks. My personal website is Casabona.org, where I link to all the millions of things I’m doing, and then the website WPinOneMonth.com, one is spelled out. That’s where you can find me, if anybody wants to say hi or reach out on Twitter or wherever, feel free to do so.
Chris Badgett: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Joe, for coming on the show.
Joe Casabona: Thanks for having me, I had a lot of fun! I love talking about this stuff.
